Can I get a witness?
17 December 2005 by RonImagine you’re involved in setting up and running a no-holds-barred performance art “open mike” night at a local venue, and performance artists come and perform without limits. So, vulgarity, profanity, nudity, sexuality, whatever, can be (but aren’t always) a part of the piece.
And then you notice that there’s a subgroup of the “performers” who come who are just there to get off by masturbating in front of the audience — not because they think it’s an interesting artistic statement, but because it gets them off. And the other performers and the audience start to resent this.
Now personally, I think that people who get off by masturbating in front of other people should get to do that, if there are people who want to watch (perhaps in exchange for being watched in turn themselves). I wish for them grand stages on which to display themselves in their chosen forms of self-flagellation. But I don’t want them at my performance art nights.
On the other hand (so to speak), I don’t at all want to ban sexuality, genitalia, or masturbation as part of legitimate performance art pieces. Wearing a Bush mask and masturbating on on a map of Iraq with an F-117A Stealth fighter shaped Fleshlight — now that’s art.
So what to do? I might post a notice, saying “Hey, please don’t just use the stage to masturbate in front of people just because that’s what gets you off. If your art work requires it, fine; but please don’t use our time and attention for your sexual self-gratification as opposed to your artistic self-expression.” Then, I would hope for self-policing. And if that didn’t work, I suppose I could just use my best judgement to ban people and pieces that seemed to violate the general principle.
I think I’ll try posting a notice. I would hate to have to do the other thing. (End of allegory.)
This is how I feel about folks who come to this blog wanting to “witness for Christ”. What, you think we haven’t heard that tedious shit before? Share it with your masturb– er, Jesus-loving friends, but we ain’t interested. And we get real tired of pointing out what bullshit it is.
Which isn’t to say theists (even Xians) don’t make legitimate and instructive contributions at this blog in the comments section. I think some theistic visitors (Dena and Frank come to mind) say some things that are worth hearing and make a real contribution. So, I don’t want to tell theists to go away.
But I do want to say: Read what it says in the upper right corner of the blog, and take note of this: You can disagree, debate, argue, and discuss. But don’t expect that it’s our place either to give you a free forum for your public mastu– er, witnessing for Christ, or that it’s our job to take time to educate you, the 3427th theist I’ve met in the last year who’s spouting that same ignorant bullshit, partially because they’ve never really met a real live atheist other than that kid in 7th grade who wore the black turtleneck and actually just turned out to be gay instead.
Maybe it’s time we should get ourselves a FAQ. Thoughts?
17 December 2005, on 10:06 am
But public masturbation is illegal.
17 December 2005, on 11:19 am
“Wearing a Bush mask and masturbating on on a map of Iraq with an F-117A Stealth fighter shaped Fleshlight — now that’s art.”
Now that would be interesting.
As for Christians, very few of them have anything useful to say. In view of how incredibly offensive and illogical Christianity is, why welcome ANY of them ?
17 December 2005, on 12:52 pm
Nicely said Ron. The metaphor works quite well the way you wrote it.
Happy Holidays
Michael Bains
Foot Soldier in the Evil Atheist Conspiracy’s
War on Christmas
17 December 2005, on 2:00 pm
I think that a FAQ page would be a great idea. I say go for it.
17 December 2005, on 2:01 pm
P.S. I am not a Christian
17 December 2005, on 3:18 pm
I come here for the interesting aspects of the articles and the humor. The Christian-bashing I just usually skip over. Bashing people for their beliefs or lack thereof is way too easy, and frankly, does little to foment understanding. Yes I realize it’s part of the charter of your blog to “make fun of believers everywhere”, and so I generally don’t complain about it, but the sort of statements that engenders are ones like I see in the above comment:
“As for Christians, very few of them have anything useful to say. In view of how incredibly offensive and illogical Christianity is, why welcome ANY of them ?”
When I read statements like that, they come across as pure naked bigotry. I’m as offended by that statement as I would be if one were to replace “Christians” with “Women”, “Blacks”, “Jews”, “Liberals”, “Europeans”, “Atheists”, or any other classification. It *might* be an Atheist sentiment to say “very few Christians have anything useful to say”, but it sure as hell isn’t a Humanist sentiment.
Putting down others for believing in the logically impossible is funny, but it does little to make people look favorably upon you. This is why I will occasionally read this blog and maybe even point people to specific articles from it, but I don’t blogroll it… the right-wing wackos already do a good job of making atheists look bad, they don’t need any help.
Many of my good friends are Christians. They know I am an atheist and they love and accept me for who I am. They don’t try to proselytize me and any discussions we have on belief are always interesting and illuminating. Maybe it’s because we’re more interested in understanding each other, than in trying to be better than each other. Maybe it’s because we are more interested in getting along with each other than in changing each other. Maybe that’s why I can count among the people I call friends Catholics, Jews, Episcopalians, Baptists, Agnostics, Hindus, Muslims, and Atheists. I feel incredibly fortunate and enriched in knowing those people.
It’s true, a person living a modern tolerant Christian life is no better than a moral Atheist.
The reverse is also true.
I think Atheist Humanism is the best way to enlightenment, but I am not better than anyone else.
Neither is anybody here.
17 December 2005, on 3:19 pm
All that said, I largely agree with Ron’s sentiments in this article, and I think that a FAQ would be an EXCELLENT idea.
17 December 2005, on 5:07 pm
LOL @ they’ve never really met a real live atheist other than that kid in 7th grade who wore the black turtleneck and actually just turned out to be gay instead
17 December 2005, on 11:07 pm
You know, I started off thinking that this blog was too snide, too offensively-named, and that it was never gonna heal the wounds that divide…
But then I noticed how fucking funny it was. There are plenty of other blogs out there trying to bring piece and harmony to all people. Why can’t this one just be onw hilarious, ongoing rant against people who believe in fairies? I come here for the therapy it brings after a day out in the theist-dominated world. Maybe I have become prejudiced, (although tolerance toward intolerance, which is at the core of nearly every religion, gets into some iffy ethical territory).
Tell ya what: next Pat Robertson says something like gays destroyed the World Trade Center, and millions of xians marched on his mansion to protest, I’ll stop altogether the blind hate being spewed on this blog (which I think is mostly just sarcastic and rarely vicious).
By the way, you can chose to be a Liberal or an Atheist. Being Black or a Woman doesn’t come with a choice.
No offense, but I wouldn’t change a goddamn thing about this blog. I think it is a wonder to behold.
17 December 2005, on 11:26 pm
Sorry, I of course meant “peace and harmony.” I can’t edit my comments on Ron’s posts. He reserves that as one of his Supreme Galactic Commander rights.
Or maybe it was a Sleudian Frip?
17 December 2005, on 11:46 pm
PS: I am 39 years old, and I don’t have a single friend who is a practicing xian, Muslim or Jew. Not one. We are agnostics or atheists one and all. I sought these people out and shunned the rest. Their brains were truly useless to help my growth in character. Yup, I must be a bigot. But I love people of all nations, believe, as Einstein did, in one world government, care not a whit about people’s sexual orientations (or activities, as long as nobody is being harmed against their will), give to many charities, adore animals, have never owned or even fired an actual gun (I want that on my epitaph), and I do believe I have save a couple of lives (without using guns).
18 December 2005, on 6:57 am
I sympathize with both Sean and Chuck. When this blog started, we (Bob, me, and a couple of others) were clearly looking for a place to rant among and with atheists, to let us and other atheists vent some frustrations, and to have some fun with some humor at the expense of the religious forces in power. There are lots of good places to get sensible discussion, and theirs is probably a higher calling than ours, but there’s room for both. So, that’s what we do.
But I respect Chuck’s point: I know plenty of decent folks who haven’t gotten past their Xianity, and I hope that in real life I do my best to embrace and respect their decency, while also trying to let them know how fundamentally in conflict that decency is with a religious view that assigns people to eternal damnation for failing to accept beliefs without evidence, and is forced to minimize the terrible suffering of human beings in order to escape the problem of evil.
Hate the belief, not the believer. But make fun of both.
18 December 2005, on 7:00 am
Dena: My apologies. Edited.
18 December 2005, on 10:23 am
Well said Ron, and explanations like that are exactly why this blog could benefit from a FAQ. Thanks for weighing in.
19 December 2005, on 8:12 am
You know I agree Ron!
19 December 2005, on 9:44 am
Ron, that was bee - e - a - you - tiful. If you need help with the FAQ please let me know.
Chuck S.: Bashing someone because they believe I deserve to burn for eternity for not having faith Throm the Merciless was sent by Gorlock the Mighty to die for my sins and bashing someone for being a particular race are two completely different things. No one can help being born with blue eyes, but they can stop believing in sky gods…some of them, that is…
And it’s not really the people we’re bashing; it’s the fanatacism.
19 December 2005, on 10:04 am
I should say, I’d been thinking about this recently, but it was email from Lya making a similar suggestion that push me off my fat lazy ass to do something. Thanks, Lya.
19 December 2005, on 12:42 pm
Let me know if you need help, Ron. During the week I’m available.
24 December 2005, on 5:13 am
I fell upon your blog and I fucking love it. There is no war on Christmas.
I write a column for the Daily Kent Stater at Kent State and wrote a column this past semester about atheism….It’s good to see people out there who aren’t too afraid to talk about their beliefs because some people might call them an “evil devil worshiper.”
Keep on keeping on…
26 December 2005, on 11:57 am
Maybe instead of a FAQ, Ron could just post some of the better proslytizing posts and rip it to shreads on the front page.
That would be good reading!
26 December 2005, on 12:56 pm
I say, go right ahead and “bash” christians. Consider, of course, what it means to “bash” christianity in a blog as opposed to what the word really means, a la “gay bashing.” No, gay bashing doesn’t mean criticizing gays in a blog. So Christians should just consider it part of being a christian–being criticized by those who don’t believe in their malarky. It says it right in their nonsense scriptures.
So, no, there is no “christian bashing” here. Even if I say they are stupid and delusional. I know bashing. I’ve seen the results of bashing. And this ain’t bashing.
31 December 2005, on 5:50 pm
I would think bashing is more an irrational, angry and bigoted reaction to an aspect of a person that they don’t have a choice in: gay-bashing, for example. The gay people I’ve known (and I live in San Francisco) have never explained to me that they’ve consciously chosen their orientation. Race-bashing is another example, as one can’t help what their race is. Gender-bashing, for another. Bashing to me seems an inappropriate and immature way to deal with differences in humanity.
Adults with religious beliefs, however, do have a choice in what they believe. One of *my* beliefs is that individuals have a human right to chose what to put their faith in, and to reserve that process for their own *personal, internal* life: i.e. they have no right to step outside the personal line to push, advertise, pressure, force, make laws, threaten, torture, murder, etc. in order to push their beliefs on me in any way. Of course, this belief of mine can be criticized, but I would think that any criticism would suggest that no one has any right to their own beliefs– including the critic’s.
If I am to criticize (not “bash”) any belief, it’s usually for the benefit of logic, maturity, rationality, reality, education, critical thinking, and science. I do call certain people idiots, but they have to be damn stupid to generate that response– and my interest is more the goal of educating and promoting critical thought than anything.
A FAQ would be great