The Miracle Miner
5 January 2006 by SeanHow come no matter how a theist looks at a situation, and no matter how that situation changes, a miracle is always occurring? When the situation looked grim for the 13 miners trapped in a coal mine in West Virginia, the governor of the state was quoted as saying: “Well, I’ve always said in West Virginia, we believe in miracles and we still believe in miracles.”
Then the news came the night before last that 12 of the 13 had survived. There was much rejoicing in the local chapel, where many of the family members waited for news. Apparently, the governor was right, a miracle had occurred (thereby discounting the grueling work of hundreds of rescue workers).
But then early in the morning yesterday, the tables flipped. There had been a miscommunication. Only one of the 13 miners had lived. This apparently resulted in at least one family member attacking an official in the chapel (when miracles don’t pan out, hit somebody).
I have great sympathy for these people, and also wonder why in 2006 we still have men risking their lives down in primitive coal mines. But at what point does Gawd stop being the answer to everything that occurs, be it good or bad?
Now, apparently the lone survivor is being referred to as the “miracle miner” — even though a) it is believed by his doctors that he survived because he was younger and stronger than all the other miners, and b) he likely has brain damage.
Sounds like a miracle to me. Thank you, God.
And from the end of the article:
Anna McCloy [wife of the miner now in a coma], looking pale and exhausted, attended a news conference at the hospital Wednesday but did not answer questions.
“Just ask everybody to keep on praying,” she said.
Yeah, cuz it was so effective for the other 12 guys.
5 January 2006, on 3:40 pm
That’s the problem with that lazy fuck …motherfucker never does a goddam thing …how can they still believe in a lazy good for nothing gawd. BAD GOD! GET UP AND DO SOMETHING YOU LAZY PIECE OF SHIT!
5 January 2006, on 3:55 pm
This right here exemplifies what I consider to be the most dangerous aspect of religious belief in terms of mental health. This is a horrible tragedy and my heart goes out to all of them. But, how can they still believe in a benevolent god when things like this happen? I’m not speaking strickly of the tragedy, but of the fact that they were told their loved ones lived when they had not. What kind of benevolent loving god fucks with people’s emotions like that? I’m sickened.
According to the Atheist Network board there have been some small reports about people cursing god and others wondering whether there is a god. Should that be true, it’s terrible that something like this needs to happen to get people to see it.
5 January 2006, on 4:27 pm
PS: I can’t wait till the numerology nutbags start claiming there is significance to the fact that there were 13 miners.
5 January 2006, on 5:06 pm
Sean,
Nothing good happened, therefore we can’t attribute it to Gorlock. Sheesh people! Gorlock is responsible for good things, otherwise he just “works in mysterious ways” and “it’s all part of his plan”.
Get it right stoopid Athiest heads!
5 January 2006, on 8:13 pm
Just imagine what would happen if the gods answered every single prayer. The whole human race would perish in an instant because half of us pray for the other half to die. Think of the chaos! Not only that, but the gods would lose their occupation.
“Grief knits two hearts in closer bonds than happiness ever can; and common sufferings are far stronger links than common joys.” — Alphonse de Lamartine
“Strange how people who suffer together have stronger connections than those who are most content.” –Bob Dylan
“If God seems to be in no hurry to make the problem of evil go away, maybe we shouldn’t be, either. Maybe our compulsion to wash God’s hands for him is a service he doesn’t appreciate. Maybe – all theodicies and nearly all theologians to the contrary — evil is where we meet God. Maybe he isn’t bothered by showing up dirty for his dates with creation. Maybe — just maybe — if we ever solved the problem, we’d have talked ourselves out of a lover.” –Robert Farrar Capon
5 January 2006, on 8:16 pm
This works for athiests too, I ask you, do you not find a sort of brotherhood in your persecution by thiests? Do you not feel a certain bond for fellow athiests due to common trials?
5 January 2006, on 9:11 pm
Absolutely. My immediate family members are all atheists and bitching about theists together is one of our favorite pastimes.
6 January 2006, on 1:23 am
“Just ask everybody to keep on praying,” she said.
Becuase God needs constant reminder of how great he is.
6 January 2006, on 1:59 am
What a fucked up, needy little boy he must be.
6 January 2006, on 8:55 am
“Do you not feel a certain bond for fellow athiests due to common trials? ”
I fail to see how this equates to worshipping an imaginary god when bad shit happens.
6 January 2006, on 1:14 pm
BTW, to those who think this is the only possible human response to tragedy, I can personally attest, having lived through the loss of loved ones in an atheist family, that there are other possible responses that can be healing other than rushing to a chapel and praying.
6 January 2006, on 7:10 pm
Lya
Neither do I. Who in thier right mind would worship an imaginary God?
But if there be a God, and if there were a Heaven, would a God make this place perfect? Why would there be a heaven then? That would make any idea of heaven even more pointless than many believe it is now, wouldn’t it?
Sean
I have little doubt that men can heal without calling upon devine intervention. It happens with mankind every day.
I have never seen an elephant pray or call out the name of any god, yet they grieve loss, then get on with trampling everything at the waterhole or whatever the plan was for that week. Amazing too how they remember their dead when they come across the bones. All without calling out to any god. So…if it works for them, why not the rest of us too?
7 January 2006, on 2:00 pm
Elephants may have a primitive god they believe in. I don’t know what goes on in an elephant’s head, or how they communicate with each other.
Heaven just seems like a fairly bizarre idea to me. Why would an omnipotent being create a universe, fill that universe with life, but make the universe so chaotic that the very life it created will suffer constantly — only to be rewarded with infinite bliss after dying miserably?
That seems to me far more of a nihilistic world-view than atheism is. It posits a very twisted imagination overseeing Creation itself.
Ah, but we have made these points over and over.
PS: Do elephants get to go to heaven, too?
9 January 2006, on 9:21 am
“But if there be a God, and if there were a Heaven, would a God make this place perfect?”
*lol* Ah, I see. Having a mine collapse on thirteen men – husbands and fathers whose families depended on them, and then having the families celebrate for THREE HOURS because their loved ones survived when that wasn’t true is A-OK because (imaginary) heaven will be an eternal beach party with Jesus.
My goodness theists scare me sometimes.
10 January 2006, on 6:46 pm
So I take it you prefer that if there were a diety, that he/she should make this place heaven. I mean the whole concept of many religions is to use this life to grow and become closer to the devine. Part of that growth is suffering. And yes, I should know better than to try and give you better understanding, not to make you believe, but to make you more objective, and less scared of us thiests. What EXACTLY scares you about someone hoping to be made better from all of this anyway? Would you prefer that everyone suffer without (imagined) comfort? I am not sure what your point is here.
11 January 2006, on 3:57 am
Dan the Strawman: This is our point, beautifully expressed.
Listen, please, and let us know your thoughts. I mean really listen.
11 January 2006, on 11:24 am
“So I take it you prefer that if there were a diety, that he/she should make this place heaven. I mean the whole concept of many religions is to use this life to grow and become closer to the devine. Part of that growth is suffering. And yes, I should know better than to try and give you better understanding, not to make you believe, but to make you more objective, and less scared of us thiests.”
To be clear, my saying I’m “scared” of theists means I’m scared of some of the absurdities that they seem to believe in. Not themselves.
“What EXACTLY scares you about someone hoping to be made better from all of this anyway? Would you prefer that everyone suffer without (imagined) comfort? I am not sure what your point is here. ”
A fair question. There is nothing wrong with hoping to see something good come out of tragedy. However, you didn’t say that this may change mining regulations or practices so that this may not happen to other miners. You said it’s alright because now they are in heaven. See the difference? One outcome would be a tangible, positive outcome of such a tragedy. The other is cold comfort.
It is entirely irrelevent what I think a deity should make of this world, as I do not believe in deities. However, I will say that should one exist and it has set up this world to make its creations suffer and toil in order to get close to it, then that is one sick and twisted deity and I want nothing to do with it.
There is an interesting take on this over at the Atheist Network: Here
11 January 2006, on 4:32 pm
Lya said:
It is entirely irrelevent what I think a deity should make of this world, as I do not believe in deities. However, I will say that should one exist and it has set up this world to make its creations suffer and
toil in order to get close to it, then that is one sick and twisted deity and I want nothing to do with it.
Prezactly. How many times do we have to make this point for it to become clear?
12 January 2006, on 10:25 am
Ad infinitum, apparently. We REALLY need to get that FAQ together. Then at least we could just direct them there. I’m going to start working on it.
12 January 2006, on 3:14 pm
This story exemplifies the logical muddle that Christians get themselves into and then have to explain by resorting to b/s. When all the news reports were that 12 had survived, it was hailed by believers as a “miracle”. When it was revealed that in fact 12 had died, it was not “god’s fault”, but explained away by the usual “we don’t know what god’s plan is” nonsense…
12 January 2006, on 7:09 pm
“To be clear, my saying I’m “scared” of theists means I’m scared of some of the absurdities that they seem to believe in. Not themselves.”
Well then we agree completely on this point.
“I will say that should one exist and it has set up this world to make its creations suffer and
toil in order to get close to it, then that is one sick and twisted deity and I want nothing to do with it.”
That statement is so far from my belief you can’t imagine. It is very much on the level of what the fundies spout. Is that what you think I am talking about?…really and honestly? There are many many things about life that is wonderful, joyful and beautiful. The Universe has laws..you know that. Should I be angry at God because He did not break His own laws of gravity? Should not men be held accountable when men are to blame? Who built that mine? God? Of course it was men. Should a god control all men like the Borg? I HOPE NOT!!! That is not what my faith is built on. The vast majority of the pain, sorrow, suffering, cruelty, heartache, war, bloodshed and despair in the world today really reveals nothing at all about the nature of God it merely points out the barbarity, selfishness, ruthlessness, brutishness, and savageness of MAN! It is MAN who wars, lies, exploits, divorces, deserts, deceives, cheats, ignores, intimidates, does drugs, steals, murders, and breaks the hearts and destroys the lives of those about him.
OK….now I know you don’t believe in God, and I say these things only to make a point about my faith, NOT to prove there is a god, or to even remotely ask you to believe. I only want to point out that there is so much more to life than suffering, but there is suffering too, and the gods are not required to micromanage every spec of the universe in order to make sure little suzy isn’t affected by gravity when she falls off the swing.
12 January 2006, on 7:52 pm
Sean
Concerning “This I Believe” that you referenced. Funny, other than not believing in God, Penn sounds a little like Jesus. I find that very interesting. Except Jesus went as far as to tell his followers to love their enemies, cause any ordinary person can love their friends and family. What is so special about that?
12 January 2006, on 8:07 pm
Loving friends and family is very special. And I disagree, a lot of people in this world have no true friends and abuse their families. And the best people have no enemies to love.
As for man being responsible for all the evils in the world, why did god create us with such capabilities? What’s the point? Why is it that only in heaven do we get to find permanent bliss? Why make a universe full of flawed life that regularly hurts itself? Why would he do that?
That is what Lya is saying. Even if we have free will, if he created the universe and all life, why did he make life capable of hurting other life — in fact needing to kill other life and feed on it to survive? Sure, there’s beauty in the world, but it does always fade, and everything you love will eventually die, or you will. Why is death so painful and miserable? Why did he even invent life and death in the first place?
Buddhists don’t believe in this Western sense of entitlement to a life of joy. They know life is suffering and that we should appreciate the small wonders and joys we get even more because of that.
Does he have some ultimate plan? How is this all supposed to turn out? Who created him and what does he do with himself these days, billions of years after creating the universe? Does he create other universes all the time? Do they also have beings in them with flawed structures that cause them to hurt each other? What’s he doing that for?
And is there a hell? It seems like an even more ridiculous — and if real, sadistic — idea. Eternal suffering for a finite crime. If there isn’t a hell, then where is Adolf Hitler now? Right alongside Jesus in heaven, after killing many, many millions of people?
12 January 2006, on 10:46 pm
Sean
Do you remember a post by Dena about her believing god IS the universe?
I don’t think she is wrong about that at all.
As far as the Plan? I”m not going to go there with ya at the moment, that is too much like evangelism for my taste.
“And is there a hell? It seems like an even more ridiculous — and if real, sadistic — idea.”
As I have pointed out in the past, no, there is no “hell” in the classical sense at all. Why would a god say he came to save the whole world if he doesn’t do that very thing? Why would he say he “wills” that all men be saved, unless the plan is that all will be saved? look up the greek word aion if ya really want to understand my point on this.
Ya know, I could type for hours and hours and hours on these subjects, and all it would be is me spouting my beliefs on an athiest blog. No point to that at all.
13 January 2006, on 2:16 am
Sorry, Dan (The Strawman). I have to call you out. Bullshit cop-out answer. The question remains: why would a perfect being create imperfect life that maims and kills other imperfect life? Are we its sick little ant farm? You dodged this in this thread completely — and you always have. What is he “saving” us from?
Wikipedia says: “The word Aion is Ancient Greek for ‘age, life-force’ and also a Finnish verb form meaning “I intend (to do something).” I call doing something “activism” and “volunteerism” and “humanitarianism.” I call my “life-force” my blood and my lungs and my heartbeat. Why does a deity have to be attached to this?
You have been kind and made some sense, but in the end you are incorrigible in your irrational clinging to these senseless beliefs.
I say there is no rational intelligence behind the universe. Prove me wrong.
13 January 2006, on 8:30 am
“and the gods are not required to micromanage every spec of the universe in order to make sure little suzy isn’t affected by gravity when she falls off the swing. ”
Says who? You? If he’s not required to micromanage why pray? People pray for all sorts of trivial sillly things. Clearly they think he does micromanage their lives.
“As I have pointed out in the past, no, there is no “hell” in the classical sense at all.”
Which is an absolutely absurd statement since you do not and cannot know that.
“Why would a god say he came to save the whole world if he doesn’t do that very thing?”
He DIDN’T. He didn’t say that and he didn’t do that. He doesn’t exist. Even aside from that, the bible is but one book among billions- why should it be excluded from the “don’t believe everything you read” common sense standard?
13 January 2006, on 6:42 pm
Sean
Awesome questions. I’m gonna cop out yet again though. If I had all those answers, I doubt you would believe me anyway. I am a seeker, and should I stumble on the precise exact reason things are the way they are, I will enlighten everyone that may want to know. I kinda like the Universe just how it is, I’m not complaining about it one bit. Why do you dislike it so?
As far as this greek word aion (and the adj. aionios) goes, it’s a little deeper subject than Wikipedia lets on, as it has been mistranslated into our english Bibles to mean anything but what you listed. Aionios for example is translated to mean eternal and that is a lie. That is where this idea of endless torment comes from, a bad translation of the greek. There are many bad transliterations and such, but this one created a whole theology of it’s own.
For a look at this, I provide these links
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.gods-kingdom.org/CreationsJub/CJAppendixes/Appendix06.htm
(I do not support all the other claims on those particular sites btw)
“You have been kind and made some sense, but in the end you are incorrigible in your irrational clinging to these senseless beliefs.”
Thanks for the compliment
Lya
“Says who? You? If he’s not required to micromanage why pray? People pray for all sorts of trivial sillly things. Clearly they think he does micromanage their lives.”
Yeah, clearly they do. But their book taught them to pray only the Lords Prayer, in private, not for show and hypocosy, and without wasting a lot of words. Most of them don’t follow that advice either, do they?
Prayer is more a meditation for me, I don’t believe in the goofy VENDING MACHINE GAWD with the big sign that says PRAYER IN/MIRACLE OUT.
As far as my absurd statement, it was because of that mistranslation I came to tht conclusion. Please remember that I do know I am talking to Athiests, therefore I do not expect you to believe this to be true. What I am simply doing here is commenting on the errors of the common Xian within their own mythology. If you like, think of it as a debate on the correct interpretation of Homer’s Iliad. Forget wether or not it is more than mythology. I ain’t out to sway your thoughts on dieties.
This is why I cop out on ya you know. All I ever wanted to do here was point out that an earlier statement: “I will say that should one exist and it has set up this world to make its creations suffer and toil in order to get close to it,….” Is not my belief at all. I Like the Universe as it is, since without it, There would be no existence whatsoever. I do believe suffering knits hearts together, but that’s not why the universe exists.
Oh BTW Lya, I don’t believe the Bible has a total monopoly on spiritual (aka fairytale) truths. I have read lots of others that actually compete very well. But they really say the same things in the end, once the whole work is compared as a whole.
“We must stop using the Bible as though it were a potpourri of inerrant proof-texts by which we can bring people into bondage to our religious traditions…We must no longer use the Bible as the Pharisees used the Torah when they gave it absolute and final status. Christian biblicism is no different from Jewish legalism. It is the old way of the letter, not the new way of the Spirit.” –Robert D. Brinsmead
13 January 2006, on 8:11 pm
All I ever wanted to do here was point out that an earlier statement: “I will say that should one exist and it has set up this world to make its creations suffer and toil in order to get close to it,….” Is not my belief at all.
I think we all know you don’t think that’s your belief. Sean (and others) are just pointing out that like it or not, that seems to be a consequence of your beliefs.