A Waste of Time? You Decide.
9 January 2006 by Lya KahloFor the past few months (ending at the end of December) I’ve been conducting a little experiment. I went to multiple xtian boards trying to see if discussion between the two camps produces anything of value. In this case, by ‘value’ I mean an understanding can be reached, ideas exchanged and preconceived notions validated or annihilated.
I started this because I’ve noticed that on atheist forums theists can get run off fairly quickly. This is mostly due to their own behavior, but they claim victim status. I have seen countless accusations from theists that atheists just hate god/religion/believers. Also, countless pleas for us to “consider the evidence” or to “take an honest look at faith.”
So, I gave them a chance. (Why did I stop at two months? Well, answering the same questions over and over again can wear on one’s nerves.)
35 forums later all I have to say is: Oy. (now, 35 boards is by no means a fair crossection of xtian boards out there. However, I am only one person with a job, a boyfriend and a life so shut-up 
).
Disclaimer: This is clearly an informal experiment, and I make no claims to its infallibility. This is just what happened to me. I encourage other atheists - with knowledge of the common fallacies and apologetics used, and plenty of patience - to try it themselves. Maybe bridges can be built.
A few notes:
-As I’ve said before I chose Xtian boards because I’m American and that is the prevalent religion here.
-Initially, it was my intention to post links to all the boards I visited - however, this was before I knew the outcome of this experiment. At that time I was expecting to find many good discussions out there in cyberland. After two months, I’d had very few. Now those of you that know me know that I can get fairly abrasive so you may be thinking that I was mean so they were mean to me. Not so. I made it a point to be as friendly, respectful and patient as I think guests should be. So, in hopes of sparing my fellow atheists from being subjected to this I will only post those forums which were good or not so bad. The Progressive Christians at Beliefnet.com, & Xnforums.com (a few flatout whackadoo posters, but the board has a rocking Moderator).
What I found:
The 11 most common misconceptions about atheists:
1. Atheists hate god/are jealous of theists
2. Atheists are arrogant and don’t want anything “superior” to them
3. Atheists have never experience religion
4. Atheists have never read/don’t understand the bible
5. Atheists just don’t want to receive the truth
6. Atheists are bitter/angry
7. Atheists just don’t want to admit they sin
8. All atheists support abortion/evolution/liberal politics/communism/fascism/etc
9. Atheists are gay
10. Atheists want to destroy/limit religion
11. Atheists think they know everything
The 5 most common excuses for having no evidence of the existence of god:
1. god doesn’t need to prove himself to his creations
2. the bible says {insert nonsense here}
3. the evidence is all around us - (meaning existence is proof of god)
4. Faith is all we need
5. Pascal’s Wager
The 14 most commonly used fallacies: (source: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm)
1. No True Scotsman fallacy - “That person/group isn’t a True Christian(tm) person/group.”
2. Appeal to ignorance as evidence for something - “We have no evidence that God doesn’t exist, therefore, he must exist.”
3. Argument from omniscience - “All people believe in something.” or “All people have faith in something.”
4. Appeal to faith - “if you have no faith, you cannot learn” or “You must have faith to understand.”
5. Appeal to tradition - “People have believed in gods for thousands of years.”
6. Argument from authority - “Professor so-and-so believes in creation-science.” or “A lot of prominent scientists believe in god.”
7. Argument from adverse consequences (also known as the Pat Robertson special) - “Disasters occur because God punishes non-believers/sinners”
8. Appeal to fear or threat - “If you don’t believe in God, you’ll burn in hell”
9. Begging the question (or assuming the answer) - “We must encourage our youth to worship God to instill moral behavior”
10. Circular reasoning - “God exists because the Bible says so; the Bible exists because God influenced it”
11. Confirmation bias - “I prayed for X to happen and it did, therefore God exists.” (nevermind the countless unanswered prayers)
12. Proving non-existence - “Prove God doesn’t exist”
13. Special pleading - Question: How can God create so much suffering in the world?
Answer: You have to understand that God moves in mysterious ways and we have no privilege to this knowledge.
14. Straw man: creating a false scenario and then attacking it. - “Atheists just want to be promiscuous/steal/do drugs/etc without consequences so they reject god.”
The 4 most commonly used bits of known hoaxes/forgeries:
1. The Lady Hope story (Darwin converted on his deathbed)
2. Josephus (see next link)
3. Anything used to “prove” Jesus really existed (this Link is a fabulous resource for debunking “proof” of Jesus’s existence)
4. Various stories that the poster failed to provide backup for - Bit of the true cross being validated, bits of Noah’s ark found on a mountaintop, apparitions of the Virgin Mary, multiple faith healing stories, prayers being answered
Some notable outcomes:
1. Seven forums banned me outright after I said I am an atheist
2. One moderator accused me of trying to corrupt the young
3. I was asked “If you don’t believe in god, why care about anything” a total of 17 times.
4. On the flip side, I was welcomed (after outing myself as a non-believer) at the other 28 forums
6. Moderate and Progressive/Liberal Xtians are just as worried about the separation of Church and State as we are
7. Most Xtians I had contact with do not support Bush or the war
Conclusion:
The entire experience can be summed up fairly easily. Generally speaking, they know next to nothing about atheists, they are extremely emotionally attached to their deities, and they are just people looking for truth as we are. The animosity that sparks between atheists and theists seems to stem from the two camps speaking two different languages - atheists speak in terms of empirical evidence and logic; theists speak in terms of faith, emotion, and the unknown. An atheist expects proof before acceptance, a theists sees acceptance as proof.
Do I see it as a waste of time? On some of the boards (*cough*HolyCultureRadio*cough*) it was a waste of time. On boards frequented by a large teenage population or a way-out-there new-agey element, it was a waste of time. But this is not the case overall -surprisingly some of the more useful conversations happened on some fairly conservative forums.
Lastly, I think there are some allies to be made out there in the fight against an impending American Theocracy (okay, that’s a little dramatic), women’s rights and anti-war activism. There are plenty of good, decent xtians out there. However, we are never going to understand each other. We speak different languages.
9 January 2006, on 12:37 pm
Wow, nice job… you’ve confirmed many theories that I’d been considering. Although, I’m surprised to hear that “Moderate and Progressive/Liberal Xtians are just as worried about the separation of Church and State as we are.” I would have thought that it was their goal to connect church and state.
I especially like #9 in the 10 most common athiest misconcptions… “Atheists are gay.” This is so over the top that I can barely think that they just weren’t messing with you. Could they possibly be so clouded? I guess if you believe: “God exists because the Bible says so; the Bible exists because God influenced it”… you’ll believe anything.
Very well done… I admire your patience.
9 January 2006, on 12:43 pm
Well-
7. Atheists just don’t want to admit they sin & 9. Atheists are gay
go hand-in-hand. In some cases they were just messing with me, but in others, they were completely serious. The assumption is that because being gay is a “sin”, gays would become atheist (which to most theists seems to mean “in denial of god”) to avoid having to face their “sin”.
9 January 2006, on 12:46 pm
“However, we are never going to understand each other. We speak different languages.”
I think that your conclusion is not only correct but the only way that I can deal with my family at all… We know what each other thinks but we don’t go there because it’s a battle that no one ever wins… it only disrupts the family so why bother.
They are sad though because they say that they will miss me in heaven… I say that I believe that a god could exist but I’ve seen no sign of any as of yet …and if he would keep me out because I didn’t tell him how great he is and thank him every five minutes then I don’t want to go there anyway!
9 January 2006, on 1:08 pm
Awesome post, Lya. I’m glad you did it. And I’m glad I didn’t.
9 January 2006, on 1:28 pm
Great post, Lya. And I would respectfully request that from now on we spell it “xian” or “Xian.” If the “X” replaces the word “Christ” as in “Xmas”, there is no reason for that hanging “t.”
xxoo,
The Schoolmarm
9 January 2006, on 1:31 pm
I saw this on another thread too. While it makes perfect sense and is correct, I’m afraid it’s too much of a habit now to add the “t”. I know it shouldn’t be there, but for some reason the word looks wrong without it.
I’ll try, but I’m not promising nuthin’
9 January 2006, on 2:17 pm
Very cool post. I admire your patience for what must have been a trying experience. I can’t say I’m surprised by your findings, but I think it is great that you allowed Christians the opportunity to shatter our views of them.
9 January 2006, on 2:36 pm
Thanks! It was rather frustrating at times, and some of the forums were just downright frightening. Which is why I didn’t list them all - some of them I didn’t keep the links for. Those ones are just better left NEVER visited. Ever.
(are they done whining about me on your board yet? is it safe to go back?
)
9 January 2006, on 2:43 pm
fight against an impending American Theocracy (okay, that’s a little dramatic)”
No, actually, it’s not.
Thanks for doing this. I’ll keep this post for later follow-through.
9 January 2006, on 3:16 pm
I think you’re right with the idea..
..the two camps speaking two different languages - atheists speak in terms of empirical evidence and logic; theists speak in terms of faith, emotion, and the unknown. An atheist expects proof before acceptance, a theists sees acceptance as proof.
And I think this entails the following:
Reason, as I see it, is to seek to explain and predict the world. Faith serves some other purpose than reason - for example, identity forming or escape from fear of death or weird evolutionary/social process.
You can’t combat faith with reason alone. Because faith isn’t based on reason, rational argument has little effect on the believer. You need to look further into what people are getting from faith and work on that level.
Anyways, great post.
9 January 2006, on 3:25 pm
Enjoyed your post, Lya. If at all possible I’d like to check out some of these forums you visited. Especially the one that ousted you for your admitted atheist status.
If you have time in the near future, could you email me a few of the links? Thanks in advance.
9 January 2006, on 4:11 pm
Dena - There are a few links in the post itself. I used Beliefnet.com quite a bit because it houses boards for as all the different brands of Xians. Basically, if you search ‘Christian debate forum’ you’ll come up with most of the links I used.
I admit I didn’t keep great records of these forums - esp those that ousted me right after I said I was an atheist - for a few reasons. First, I had no intention of visiting them again. Second, I didn’t want other atheists to have the same thing happen if only to attempt at sparing us the “bad rep”. But - Holy Culture Radio banned me immediately (hence their honorable mention in the post). So did CARM (http://www.carm.org/boards.htm).
I will go back through my notes and see if I can find the links to the other five.
David - “You need to look further into what people are getting from faith and work on that level.”
Agreed. However, I have an issue with this simply because what they claim to get from faith - meaning, purposeful, morals, comfort etc - I get from not having it. My life didn’t come into focus as it is now until I stopped my search for an imaginary deity. So, while I understand what they get from faith, I don’t understand how they get these things from it.
As I’ve said a hundred times before, if we were talking about any other than god, atheists and theists would be on the same page. I’ve used the example of a human being able to fly before: were any of us told that a human has the ability to jump off the roof and fly away we would all expect proof to believe it - atheist and theist alike. Yet, insert “god” into this equation and suddenly no proof is neccessary.
I do not and probably will not understand how meaning is derived from religion since it requires the suspension of all the things we consider virtures or positives in all other areas.
9 January 2006, on 4:57 pm
Lya: I agree with you. Penn Jillette sums it up quite nicely in that NPR piece he did for “This I Believe.” It’s been posted here several times and is easily Googled. Being forced by the structure of the show to speak in the positive/affirmative, he talks about how disbelief in rewards and punishments based on an invisible deity/afterlife has made him a better person in this life. In other words, he has to be nice to people the first time around, rather than praying for forgiveness later. He has to seek joy and wonder in this, the best and only life he will ever have, etc.
So how faith can give me those things, I have never understood. I tried it a little when I was a teenager. One day I just got up and said “this is bullshit” and went on with my life.
As for being banned from the Xian boards: I’m not surprised. Go on FreeRepublic.com and say anything that disagrees with their whacko extreme right views and you will be banned and your post deleted. It’s the O’Reilly Factor: somebody says something you don’t agree with, you just scream “SHUT UP” at them.
9 January 2006, on 6:44 pm
Lya
I am extremely impressed. I have come to this forum for pretty much the same purpose….to try and understand the athiest point a little better, and to ask some direct questions, never attempting to convince anyone that there is a God, but try and lend a little understanding. Naturally, as soon as I declared that I was a Christian, I was declared looney by some. Though some were cool. I have been treated like an idiot with no scientific knowledge, even though I told people I had no problem with evolution, the belief there may be other life forms somewhere (for wich I have been labled strawman, seriously, I was not making any argument except clarifying my own position on this one), accept the age of the universe and the big bang, etc… etc..Any comments I made were never intended to show there definitely was a god (or goddess) yet I was treated as if my comments were supposed to be showing proof of something other than what I claimed. I have found that since I declared myself Xian, what ever I say is pretty much misunderstood, and I think it is because folk expect me to be making a point of proof for the existence of god, or that I appear to be sarcastic. Well, I am sarcastic, and I think it transaltes poorly in this forum.
I admit, a couple of times I tried to clear up a couple misconceptions about the details of my faith, more to seperate myself from the fundies than to evangelize…that would be a waste of time…lol. I have never once tried to convince anyone there is a god, period. I have tried to understand what it is like to be outside of the majority, and I have tried to show why the majority is the way they are (remember the “silly” god center?).
OK, this is sounding like a rant. Once again, not my intention. Just trying to agree with Lya in my wierd nonsensical way. I like this blog, honest, or I wouldn’t read all the stuff, a lot of it is good stuff, and I hate to say this, I agree with 90 percent of it. Not for the same reasons, but agree nevertheless.
I consider myself to be a liberal Xtian (yes I do know it is Xian) and your right, we are not like the fundies in many many ways.
OK, my wine is up, gotta find some cheese.
“[I]t is very hard to say the exact truth, even about your own immediate feelings – much harder than to say something fine about them which is not the exact truth.”–George Eliot
9 January 2006, on 7:02 pm
strawman - you’ve been treated pretty good here I think …probably because you’ve made sense most of the time. I treat people the way they treat me and the other atheists here. Changing your name to strawman says something to me …you are willing to admit falicy. Many theists will not bend as you have.
Wanna see me bend: 1. There is a possibility that there is a god and the xians are correct. 2. There is a possibility that all you see in this world is all you get and that god is a pipe dream.
No one on this earth knows for sure which it is but as Lya has attempted …we need to find a way to work together because we all live on this one world.
9 January 2006, on 10:51 pm
Oh yeah, and when I called you a retard that time strawman (you are dan right?) I didn’t mean anything by it, all insults from me should be taken as little more than fillers for when I don’t know how to end a sentence, you fucker.
9 January 2006, on 11:17 pm
Lya: I can’t say anything more than what others have said. Excellent job, and I applaud your patience. You rock.
Strawman: For the record (and outside of humor), I rarely see any of us seriously calling someone loony or an idiot straight off from the simple and solitary fact that they’re xian (or religious). It might have happened (and I’m sure that many of us might think it), but it rather seems overwhelmingly the case that the context is usually an admission of belief in a (sometimes long) paragraph with all the bullshit mixed in. When we read THAT, well, that kinda pisses us off — and the fact that you’re a believer just gets mixed in with the criticism.
I could be wrong. But that was my impression.
10 January 2006, on 2:56 am
Is this the same Chris that visits here regulary? If so, Chris said:
Wanna see me bend: 1. There is a possibility that there is a god and the xians are correct. 2. There is a possibility that all you see in this world is all you get and that god is a pipe dream.
This is the most vulnerable thing I have seen you share since I have visited this forum, and I couldn’t be happier. (Unless, of course, this isn’t the same Chris.)
To Lya: I visited the links you provided in your post. Wasn’t impressed by them. Perhaps I didn’t search long enough throughout their subject contents. I was mostly looking for more of the fanatical types.
10 January 2006, on 3:02 am
That makes Christian forums less tolerent than atheist forums, and thus better. On their boards, atheists let them blather all they want, and ban anyone (like me) who dares to call them on their bullshit. At least Christians are proud of their stupid and disgusting little belief system.
10 January 2006, on 9:11 am
Francois Tremblay -
That scenario you mentioned reminds me of why I stopped going to the Raving Atheist forum. They let xian trolls run wild (or at least they did at that time).
10 January 2006, on 10:31 am
YES this is the same Chris… the same as ever …I’m a scientist through and through …testing and theorizing since I was about 10. Being that I would never ever assume that just because you can’t see it, it doesn’t exist. A true scientist does not make assumptions like this. As good as this may make you feel (xians) here’s the score:
After 35 years on this planet:
Proof that what you see is all you get? 1000’s of personal accounts seen with my own eyes …logically tested and confirmed to over 99% in many cases.
Proof that god exists? None, zero, ziltch, nada …even after being catholic for 15 years, xian for 5 years, and fence riding for 10 years. Praying with open heart to no avail. With no proof I have to assume gawd is just an ancient relic of our past culture… I could be wrong …he could prove me wrong any day he wants …infact I dare him!
10 January 2006, on 10:56 am
[...] Lya from God is for Suckers just posted about an informal experiment. She spent a couple of months visiting 35 Christian forums and compiled her observations of excuses, logical fallacies and misconceptions about atheists. She also offers some general commentary on the experience and the interactions she had. Anyone interested in the nuances of dialog between theists and atheists should go read her results. [...]
10 January 2006, on 1:43 pm
Good work, and idea. Your lists are ordered instead of bulleted. I assume this means that #1 is always the most common of the list? For instance, is “god doesn’t need to prove himself to his creations” the most commonly used excuse “for having no evidence of the existence of god?”
It’s informative, but depressing, that theists are so irrational and hateful most of the time.
Thanks for the “Did Jesus Actually Exist?” link.
10 January 2006, on 2:14 pm
I saw a van in a church parking lot with a bumper sticker on it that said “April 1: National Atheist Day.” I’m sure the driver of that vehicle would be incapable of rational discussion about anything more challenging than how to poach an egg.
One of the purposes of my tongue-in-cheek web log is to poke fun at the absurdities of religious belief, even though I myself am a religious person (not Christian).
This was a good list, and the sites you visited must have been much more thoughtful than Anonymous Driver of Offensive Van.
10 January 2006, on 2:31 pm
On each list the first is the one I received the most, but the rest are in no special order. (I got lazy
)
10 January 2006, on 3:47 pm
Lya wrote:
“However, I have an issue with this simply because what they claim to get from faith - meaning, purposeful, morals, comfort etc - I get from not having it. ”
—
In terms of what I think Christian’s get out of Christianity, I don’t think most people are in Christianity to get morality and meaning out of it. Some are of course, but other people hold on to Christianiaty for other reasons, such as:
In a indifferent world, they get the sense that someone cares and is looking after them. It can be hard to accept that no-one is and that life is random and mostly meaningless.
There’s also neurological and psychological benefits. See
http://www.futuresfoundation.org.au/Future-News/Features-(General)/Religion:-why-it’s-here-to-stay-and-what-to-do-about-it-20051123235/ for a breakdown of these
And this interesting little nugget:
http://www.sauer-thompson.com/archives/philosophy/002768.html
—
Because their attachment to Christianity is not logical or rational, rather it’s psychological or neurological - it can’t be shifted on a rational level - ie with rational arguments.
That’s my take on it anyway.
10 January 2006, on 4:02 pm
“Because their attachment to Christianity is not logical or rational, rather it’s psychological or neurological - it can’t be shifted on a rational level - ie with rational arguments.”
Though, I don’t agree the life is random or mostly meaningless, I agree with this.
10 January 2006, on 4:48 pm
Lya, your article was recently posted over on Christdot, and as an admin and active participant over there, I just thought I’d extend an invitation to you and your readers to have a visit and take part in the discussions. We seem to regularly discuss issues that would be of interest to you.
I myself come from a science/engineering background, but am an adult convert to Christianity, so perhaps I have a perspective that is different from most. I find an ongoing dialogue between Christians and nonChristians to be useful and important. Demonizing people who believe something different than you do is rarely productive.
In Christ,
Eric Stuyvesant
10 January 2006, on 4:59 pm
Hey, good post, you must have so much patience to do that! The neurobiological, psychological thing is interesting. I can’t believe some of the things people think about atheists. Some of the people on those forums are a bit fanatical, do xian people in America actually act like they come across? I guess there must be people like that in England too I just haven’t met any.
10 January 2006, on 5:38 pm
[...] I started this because I’ve noticed that on atheist forums theists can get run off fairly quickly. This is mostly due to their own behavior, but they claim victim status. I have seen countless accusations from theists that atheists just hate god/religion/believers. Also, countless pleas for us to “consider the evidence” or to “take an honest look at faith.” An interesting portion of the story is this:The 11 most common misconceptions about atheists: 1. Atheists hate god/are jealous of theists 2. Atheists are arrogant and don’t want anything “superior” to them 3. Atheists have never experience religion 4. Atheists have never read/don’t understand the bible 5. Atheists just don’t want to receive the truth 6. Atheists are bitter/angry 7. Atheists just don’t want to admit they sin 8. All atheists support abortion/evolution/liberal politics/communism/fascism/etc 9. Atheists are gay 10. Atheists want to destroy/limit religion 11. Atheists think they know everything(READ THE WHOLE PIECE) [...]
10 January 2006, on 5:59 pm
As a Christian, I can see how this comes about. Christian doctrine suggests that everyone is born with an innate sense of God’s existence, if only a guilty and imperfect inkling of His existence. There would be far fewer atheists if it were possible for people given the grace of a contemplative mind to blissfully ignore the prospect that He is there. So many atheists I have spoken with spend hours pouring over the Bible, looking for flaws or contradictions; they know it better than many merely professing Christians. Why devote so much energy to a God who isn’t there?
And (No True Scotsman fallacy) it’s admittedly hard for everyone to remain Christlike when their beliefs are challenged; tribalism is another of those instincts of our imperfect flesh we have to struggle with. We have the example of Jesus, and every day we fall short in trying to live up to that standard. We would have told you ourselves.
There is no proof that God exists; and any God that could be proven in that sense isn’t a God that matters. Ultimately, it makes little difference for me whether there’s a Greatest Possible Being or an Uncaused First Cause. The god that matters is the God who died on the cross to allow us to gain eternal life. And the only honest answer to those who say “it seems unlikely” is, “indeed, it does.” It is for just this reason that this God requires faith of His followers, and “faith is the evidence of things unseen. . .”
10 January 2006, on 6:09 pm
I think it’s sad that so many sites rejected you. I also find you’re attitude quite sad. The very fact you find it acceptable to call Christians “Xtians” displays this attitude quite clearly.
10 January 2006, on 6:36 pm
David
I would support this to be the case, it is what I have been saying all along. We are wired that way, through natural selection or whatever the evolutionary process was. I wish some one would clone some Neanderthal and give them a habitat, just so we could gather data on them. I know, it sounds wrong, but I want to split them up, tell one group about the sun god, and let the other group evolve naturally. Years later, we can do a study on their cultures. Since they are not actually humans, but near relatives, it would be interesting to me.
10 January 2006, on 8:08 pm
As a Christian with Atheist friends, I still found myself unfamiliar with the beliefs of the average Atheist.
I spent countless hours talking with Atheists on Atheist boards, and wading through the self-righteous arrogance, I came to the following conclusion: Atheists can be just as ignorant, stubborn, and zealous as any theist. We are all equally reluctant to admit our fallacies, and just as unlikely to admit that we don’t have all the answers.
I’ve yet to talk with an Atheist who will admit that he might be wrong.
I once read an article, the hypothesis of which was that any discussion between theists and Atheists is futile. Nothing constructive can come of it, because these discussions have no goal, and no common language.
Eventually, I had to block my access to these forums with my firewall. It was too easy to be drawn into fruitless arguments, and I wasted far too much time trying to explain my position to people who couldn’t've cared less.
10 January 2006, on 9:07 pm
Though I am of the opinion that the existence of a god of some type is possible, what I find particularly hard to swallow are the nuances of the Christian faith, or any other faith for that matter. My father is a Christian minister, so I have particular interest in the subject, but I cannot really discuss this sort of thing with him. So, I guess the point of my post is to ask Lya (or ayone else) if she is aware of any forums where I am likely to encounter individuals that could offer some sort of plausible explanation for their beliefs in Christianity. I am not looking to fight with them, just to understand what reasons, besides the ubiquitous “faith”, support the basic Christian beliefs. Thanks!
10 January 2006, on 9:30 pm
Francois:
“On their boards, atheists let them blather all they want, and ban anyone (like me) who dares to call them on their bullshit.”
Hope you’re not positing an absolute here.
The last time I called a theist on her crap at the Nogodblog, I called her a total ass.
That was 2 weeks ago. No response.
I’ve called multiple theists on their bullshit at the NGB. Nicely or bluntly.
& I’m still a regular.
As for trolls at the RA, there’s plenty from both sides over there.
& we have 1 liberal Xtian who frequents there (NGB). Who has become a friend of mine, BTW. (& I, a thorough apostate, to boot!)
& he’s well liked.
So everything’s not so absolutely cut & dried, after all.
strawman:
“Since they are not actually humans, but near relatives, it would be interesting to me.”
That sounds utterly wretched. Sorry. There is a 40% DNA differentation between Cro-Magnon & Neanderthal, which does qualify as speciation.
Problem is, what if we found out they were actually sentient?
Sounds terribly immoral.
10 January 2006, on 11:51 pm
Has anybody followed any of the links to the Xian sites that are blogging about Lya’s “experiment”? One person makes fun of us because we say things like “thank-you” to each other, thereby expressing gratitude, which is something we can’t see, is immeasurable, and is therefore akin to faith. So if I say “I love you” to someone and they believe me, it is apparently no different than believing in an invisible sky daddy.
Um. Huh?
11 January 2006, on 12:21 am
You didn’t try us.
11 January 2006, on 12:45 am
Hi all,
First of all, I apologize for each time a “self-labeled Christian” offended or hurt any of you. Many things are said about Xtians, and sadly many are true. Thanks Lya for this place of real thought and for the assurance that everyone’s opinions are accepted.
I know that God is an irrational concept that can only be understood by Love in someone greater than Self at a conscience level. All the rest is Theology, there is plenty of it and this isn’t the place for that. Just for the record, I believe in a Man Loving- Sin Hating God embodied in Jesus Christ.
Have you ever thought: Why am I here?
I have, and after studying some (I have a degree in engineering and an MBA) the further I study the things of God the further I realize that it is impossible that the Chaos of the Universe (Big Bang-Evolution, which I realized is scientifically impossible to proof) put you guys and I here in this time and place to “talk” while we don’t even see each other. There must be a greater “intelligence”. Thomas Edison “We do not know one-millionth of one percent about anything.”
For the ones really convinced that there is no god, try this link (to the end) and see in you feel the same way afterwards.
http://www.livingwaters.com/good/
Love you.
In Christ,
Leo
11 January 2006, on 3:46 am
Thanks to the Xians who have come in and offered olive branches. Nice to meet you.
However, I personally would ask you to refrain from signing your postings “In Christ.” Please do not proselytize here. This is a phrase that carries no meaning for us. You are a guest in our house. If Lya was polite and acted as a respectful guest in your houses, which I believe her on her honor that she was, I think it would be polite for you to do the same.
Looked at in another way, imagine if I came to your house of worship on a Sunday, stood up in front of the congregation and asked them to prove to me the existence of god based on scientific method. That would be a rather rude approach to the discussion, wouldn’t it?
Again, rhetoric like “In Christ” carries no value and is somewhat insulting here. Please speak to us about your beliefs without evangelical language.
Thank you.
11 January 2006, on 4:20 am
Leo said:
There must be a greater “intelligence”. Thomas Edison “We do not know one-millionth of one percent about anything.
If we don’t know anything, why must there be a “greater intelligence”?
We invented the idea of a greater intelligence, yet we don’t know anything, so why must it be?
Do you follow?
11 January 2006, on 4:36 am
From Anne Johnson’s blog:
A riotous ramble through the Intelligently Designed universe with Anne, the hillbilly goat judge, and the many gods and goddesses who’ve been let go in revised head counts.
And…
Welcome to “The Gods Are Bored!” We think the Moral Majority isn’t, and the Religious Right really isn’t. Our doctrine consists of restoring ancient gods and goddesses to the positions they once held (including a living wage, benefits and vacation time).
These gods and goddesses are the victims of hostile takeovers by a series of monotheistic religions that, no matter the original intention of the god in charge, have wreaked mayhem around the world.
Not to mention leaving stubborn stains on furniture.
I’m Anne, your hostess. My furniture is spotless.
Being democratic and open-minded about pantheons gives me great optimism about my prospects on the Other Side. Never having had much opportunity to travel the world, I confidently expect to be welcome in many and various heavens, by such a wealth of bored gods that I’ll hardly know where to start!
Hi, Anne. A polite welcome, a tip of the hat to dissing the Religious Right… and then I have to tell you that you sound completely nuts. Just because you don’t subscribe to any of the three monotheistic sky-god religions doesn’t mean that you have a rational head on your shoulders. I had to stop reading your blog after just a few sentences due to its sheer craziness. You see, I live in California, breeding ground of whackjob new belief systems. My shields are already well-constructed against utter nonsense.
Sorry, but you’re just as flipped as the rest of them. Just try not to hurt anyone on the basis of your insane beliefs before you check out.
11 January 2006, on 6:30 am
CHRISTians, NOT Xtians!!!
11 January 2006, on 6:44 am
Matt… You are a guest in our house. Why should we respect your beliefs and accommodate your choice of terminology? Did you bring anything to eat at our little potluck? Otherwise, shut up and respect your host.
It’s Xians. Period.
11 January 2006, on 8:18 am
Matt: what do you find objectionable about the term ‘Xian’? Are you aware of its derivation? The ‘X’ is simply a shorthand for
‘Christ’, deriving from the resemblance of the Greek chi (first letter of Christos) to an ‘X’. IIRC it was originally
used by monks for no purpose more sinister than saving time writing a frequently-used word. It holds no derogatory meaning, except
perhaps by association. So why do you dislike it so?
11 January 2006, on 9:18 am
Jared,
I’m not surprised you would be ‘unfamiliar with the beliefs of the average atheist’, because there aren’t really beliefs with which
to be familiar. Two people, both atheists, need have but one thing in common, a lack of belief in a god or gods. You may prefer to
regard ‘true’ atheism as positive disbelief, but either way, it’s a single point. Atheism is not a system of beliefs or a
whole philosophy. Many atheists would hold some such system, like humanism or objectivism, but no such system is atheism and
atheism is not necessarily required for any of them. No two atheists will necessarily hold the same or similar positions on many
other matters simply because they are atheists. Just what you think ‘the beliefs of the average atheist’ would cover I admit I don’t
really get.
You’re certainly correct in that an atheist, merely because he is an atheist, will not necessarily be any less ignorant, stubborn or
zealous than anyone else. It is not however true that ‘we are all equally reluctant to admit our fallacies’ or ‘unlikely to admit
that we don’t have all the answers’ - recognising and admitting fallacies in one’s own position is a hallmark of intellectual
honesty and I think it’s perfectly reasonable and evident that people vary in their degree of intellectual honesty (likewise for not
having all the answers). Bear in mind, however, that atheists will often at least profess (I’m hedging my bets here since you sound
like you’ve had some pretty bad luck in your contact with atheists online) to value rationality in debate, and may give short shriftto fallacious argument, of which a great deal of theological argument (especially as posted on atheist blogs, it seems) consists; so
when you see an argument with gaping flaws put forward by someone who clearly thinks they’ve just sunk your whole worldview, and
it’s basically identical to fifty other arguments given you in the last week, you’re likely to seem ‘arrogant’ or ’stubborn’ in
rejecting it. I would suggest http://atheism.about.com/, if you’re looking for information about what atheism does and does not
entail and how that might influence a person’s other attitudes and beliefs. The author there has the advantage of only needing to
answer one copy of each argument…
Lastly,
Ive yet to talk with an Atheist who will admit that he might be wrong.
(If you consider this ‘met’…) I am an atheist. I do not believe that any god or gods exist; in fact I believe that none do (which
is not the same thing). I will admit that I might be wrong. I do not think that at all likely, however; and depending on the god
under discussion I may feel I am as likely to be wrong on this as I am on my conviction that, yes, 2 + 2 really does equal 4,
because I think some ideas of god can be shown to be incoherent, meaningless or logically contradictory. However, I do not assert
that nothing that anyone anywhere would care to term a god might exist. If I am presented with specific claims about a god or
reasons to believe in one I will evaluate those on their merits and, going by experience, will most likely reject them. I would not
call this self-righteousness, arrogance, stubborness, ignorance or zealotry. I hope you would not either.
11 January 2006, on 9:20 am
Sorry for the mangled postings, the editor I’m stuck with here is rather finicky. I’ll wait till I’m at home this evening before continuing.
11 January 2006, on 9:41 am
Matt, FYI, the “x” in Xians is an oooold short-hand for Christ. the greek letters Chi and Rho have been long used to symbolize Christ because they are the first two letters of christos, which is Greek for Christ, which is the septuagint translation of the Hebrew “messiah.” Here’s an image that should help. I’m sure you’ve seen this symbol in your church: http://www.djp.ch/pre/chi-rho.jpg
11 January 2006, on 9:56 am
Yeah, you atheists are so mean, calling us “Xians”, when all we do is endorse your eternal damnation for your religious views!
And Morgan: Nice comment. I agree. I could be wrong. Nothing is absolutely certain. I could be wrong about what street I live on, too. But I’m pretty sure I’m not.
11 January 2006, on 10:44 am
“The very fact you find it acceptable to call Christians “Xtians” displays this attitude quite clearly. “\
“CHRISTians, NOT Xtians!!! ”
As has already been explained on this site “Xians” is not an insult. Stop pouting and look it up.
You’re in our house now. I will say whatever I like.
I will be posting some clarifications soon. Obviously I haven’t made myself as clear as I originally hoped.
11 January 2006, on 10:46 am
“I’ve yet to talk with an Atheist who will admit that he might be wrong.”
Then you have yet to talk with an atheist.
“and I wasted far too much time trying to explain my position to people who couldn’t’ve cared less. ”
and so you’ve come here because. . . .?
11 January 2006, on 10:47 am
Maybe it is my own biases, but I don’t view saying “In Christ” as proselytizing, as there is no conversion intended just a mention of a name. Based on this response, I can understand why Christians would believe some of the “most common misconceptions about atheists”, including 1. Atheists hate god and 10. Atheists want to destroy/limit religion.
“In Christ” is a statement I am Christian and believe in Christ. It is not significantly different than Lya saying she is an atheist and does not believe in Christ on Christian forums. It is not comparable to attempting to prove or disprove the existence of God or interrupting a church service. But it is YOUR house and I don’t want to step on your toes, so I’ll invite you to our house, Christdot.org. Our only “rule”, for atheist or theist, is that posts be kept PG-13, which judging from the content of this forum, should not be an issue. We have a few resident atheists and welcome your input, even if you do only come to proselytize and use atheist language while explaining your beliefs.
Regards,
Entity
Christdot.org Admin Team
11 January 2006, on 11:01 am
In an attempt to understand:
I was an Atheist at one point in my life and now I am a Theist. Why? Because I came to a point in my life where I had to trust in something I couldn’t see and knew didn’t exist. Once that step of faith was completed (from my heart that believed for me) I received what most Christians would call the peace of God that is beyond comprehension.
Because it is a Knowing that we can’t truly explain, our language becomes faulty and Christians respond out of emotion to the questions from Atheists that are so very hard to understand or even respond to. We don’t want to Win you over as a victory but dearly want you to experience what we experience on a daily basis. That would be the filling of the God shaped hole in every human’s heart.
Unfortunately there is no concrete evidence for the existence of God and a theist is left with an Experiential Knowing that can’t be accurately explained.
I feel badly that I can’t relate this to you
Question:
If God does exist how many Atheist truly want to know?
11 January 2006, on 11:13 am
Leo,
Your rhetorical bullshit test did not impress me.
Entity,
The statement is offensive as it is connotative of all of the ills that have been committed in the name of jizzus. So if you feel it’s fine to use it I guess you won’t mind mine-
In the name of the virgin screwing and baby-blood bathing glory of the all powerful Satan, star of the most high and inferno of my heart,
Marcus
GIFS
11 January 2006, on 11:39 am
Marcus,
I’m not offended. I would rather have you state your beliefs than feel that they are stifled. I do find it amusing that you are helping to perpetuate “misconceptions” 1 and 6.
Regards,
Entity
11 January 2006, on 11:50 am
Entity,
Heh- you’re funny; although, if you think I’m perpetuating those misconceptions, you must be dumber than I tell people.
11 January 2006, on 12:11 pm
Entity: here we go with the fact that Lya has already pointed out. We speak different languages. Should I come to your blog and start posting with the signature:
God is dead
Jesus is a fraud
Organized religion equals bigotry
Love,
Sean
11 January 2006, on 12:12 pm
“If God does exist how many Atheist truly want to know? ”
Can someone please explain to me why wanting evidence before believing somehow means we wouldn’t listen to the evidence at all?
11 January 2006, on 12:19 pm
PS: When you are a guest in someone’s house, and they ask you not to say something a certain way, the polite thing to say is “My apologies, I won’t do it again.” Anybody who has travelled to another country and encountered drastically different cultures can relate to this. So we asked you to stop saying “In Christ” in your signatures and you argued with us.
Your posts remain, unlike the 7 out of 30 Xian blogs that banned Lya outright for saying she was an atheist.
Why? Because we don’t believe in censorship. It goes against the First Amendment, which is far more important to us than Jeebus.
But just to let you know, if you do keep saying “In Christ” like proselytizing fanatics, we have the right to simply delete that sentence from your post.
Again: come to our house, be polite, follow our rules. Mmmm-kay?
11 January 2006, on 12:23 pm
If God does exist how many Atheist truly want to know?
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Me! Me!
I would love to have this argument settled for good and let it bring about world peace and harmony.
So… What’s the evidence, again?
11 January 2006, on 12:34 pm
Lya,
Do you really want to know? You didn’t answer the question.
11 January 2006, on 12:39 pm
You see, Gordo, we already know there is no such thing; therefore the question is moot.
11 January 2006, on 12:51 pm
“You didn’t answer the question. ”
Yes, I did.
But, I’ll bite. Please present your case.
11 January 2006, on 12:54 pm
Sean,
Apparently your requests for politeness are only aimed at theists. I wouldn’t want to call some of your members inhospitable, as that would be impolite, but it does appear that my sole experience with an atheist blog is almost as rude as 20% of Lya’s experiences with Christian blogs. If I read correctly, 80% of them welcomed her and did not attempt to stifle her views.
I did not argue with you over whether this phrase would continue to be used and you should notice that I have not used it as a closer. I took issue to your comparison of “In Christ” as a closer to proselytizing. If this blog is not an area where such discussions and exchange of thoughts is welcome, I apologize. You are welcome to join us on Christdot.org, as Lya has, for a more open and less stifled discussion.
And I don’t care what your signature is there. While I may argue with your conclusions, I would not ask you not to say them. I would let them stand as a representation of the atheist that you are and let others draw their own conclusions about you.
Regards,
Entity
11 January 2006, on 12:58 pm
Entity- atheist boards are frequently infested with trolling theists. So, those that aren’t will frequently get less-than-friendly treatment until they prove themselves. Call it a trial by fire. If you can prove you’re not a troll, the treatment gets better. But, understand we get burned more than not.
Also, I never made a claim that atheists sites are superior in any way to theist ones.
11 January 2006, on 1:01 pm
I find it strange that many of the xians close their comments like they would a letter. It is as if they don’t think we are aware of who is speaking.
And of course xian blogs welcome outsiders, it is a chance for proselyitization. I have an interesting anecdote to put up, maybe in the next two days, about xian duplicity.
11 January 2006, on 1:16 pm
Lya,
I would rather not try to argue anyone into the Kingdom of God. For my own information wanted to know how many Atheists truly would want to know God if He exists.
Marcus,
Have a nice life.
11 January 2006, on 1:28 pm
“I would rather not try to argue anyone into the Kingdom of God. For my own information wanted to know how many Atheists truly would want to know God if He exists.”
So, I ask again - please explain how our repeatedly saying that we require evidence before believing, means we somehow would NOT want to see this evidence?
If you’ve got some, show us.
And to expand:
What it looks like you’re doing is playing with the misconceptions I’ve already noted (#2 & #5). Why would we not want to know? Do you think we’re just in denial? Do you think we’ve never looked for him? Do you think you can change anyone’s mind?
11 January 2006, on 1:29 pm
Because it is a Knowing that we can’t truly explain, our language becomes faulty and Christians respond out of emotion to the questions from Atheists that are so very hard to understand or even respond to. We don’t want to Win you over as a victory but dearly want you to experience what we experience on a daily basis.
So you’ve had an “experiential knowledge” (certainty?) that you can’t relate because such experiences are beyond thought, words, and comprehension? In your (strangely convenient) case, then, I guess, there’s no need for faith, since it’s all been made clear to you. (Why not others? Were you special? Aren’t others longing more than you?)
And, I suppose, there’s no possibility of fallibly re-characterizing such an experience as something other than what you thought it initially was, i.e., do you think that if you were brought up in Iran or Paris you would’ve had the same experience? (Why are these experiences always demographically biased?)
Concerning what you “experience on a daily basis,” it might be that we either experience very different things or have radically different attitudes toward those things. What do those who’ve had these “experiences” say (for example) to the problem of evil? When I see all that stuff I’m deeply troubled, and, when I think of god, I get pissed. What do you do? Stand there, “knowing” that it’s all justified, even thought you can’t say why? (I mean, it can’t seem to bother you all THAT much, since your experience was so authentic and confirming.)
If so, when exactly does all that just start to get weird? As it stands, you haven’t really distinguished your “experiences” or “sureness of attitude” from any type found in various (xian) cults.
11 January 2006, on 1:39 pm
“Marcus,
Have a nice life.”
Aww… look at the cute little corndog lover!
11 January 2006, on 1:41 pm
Lya,
I don’t know if you’re interested in continuing your experiment, but I run a small discussion board myself. We do have a couple of members who are not Christians/atheists, and we do have some very good discussions. Things are very slow there right now, but we’re always looking for new members to generate good topics for discussion. If you’re interested, you can find us at http://www.open-dialogue.com.
11 January 2006, on 1:44 pm
Lya,
I understand the trollhunting. We do it occasionally on our site when someone comes in who essentially wants to spam us with their POV, whether it is atheist, Christian, or other. Those who desire to participate are welcomed.
I don’t believe I’ve exhibited any troll behavior, so if I have please let me know. This does seem to be a very closed group, particularly to my kind. As you are the author of this thread, if you desire myself or others from Christdot to leave, and not return. It might, however, be interesting and fruitful to have the insights of the group (Christian forums) that you are talking about. You are always welcome on Christdot to share your insights.
I didn’t believe that you made the claim of the superiority of atheist sites. However, I do wonder what your blog would have said if you had pretended to be a Christian and visited 35 atheist sites. What would your welcome have been like? Would you have been banned? Would everyone ask you the same questions? What would atheists misconceptions about Christians have been?
Marcus,
On my forum, I don’t sign my name. When I call home, I don’t identify myself to the person who answers. They know me.
When I visit another forum, I often do identify myself in the closer. It seems like it is beneficial to other posters and was not meant to annoy you or call your intelligence into question.
You can choose to have preconceptions of Christian blogs, or you can choose to visit ours. However, you’ll find we are much more interested in discussing the finer points of theology with each other than attempting to prove to you that God exists. To us, that is a settled question.
Regards,
Entity
11 January 2006, on 1:45 pm
“So you’ve had an “experiential knowledge” (certainty?) that you can’t relate because such experiences are beyond thought, words, and comprehension?”
See Bob, I can jump off the roof right now and fly away, but I can’t show you. It can’t be proven through science. You’ll just have to have faith that I can fly. Or you’ll burn in hell forever.
11 January 2006, on 2:05 pm
Here’s the thing about being wrong about gawd. I might be. I’ll admit that. Gawd could come down and smite me right now or he could knock on my door, and say “hey dumbass, get your shit together, I EXIST!!!” Then I could believe in him. But, I still wouldn’t like him very much. This is my problem: there’s all sorts of shit in the world, the world which gawd supposedly created. The story goes that he created everything. Us, dogs, disease, famine, war, one-eyed cats that die after a day, etc. All the good stuff is to be credited to him. All of the bad stuff is because we disobeyed our big insecure sky daddy. But wait, there’s a second chance. Gawd made himself a baby boy just so he could grow up to be murdered. Somehow, this makes us redeemable.
The moral, gawd is a bloodthirsty, ill-tempered, insecure one-eyed cat maker.
11 January 2006, on 2:08 pm
Lya,
I have no evidence that you have not already heard and torn apart.
The only evidence I can offer you is that feeling inside of you when someone says to you “Jesus Loves You”
You ultimately have to decide.
If I’m wrong I have lost nothing. I’ve had a good life and shared it with a lot of like minded people. If you are wrong you have lost an eternity of peace and love.
Bob,
I’m upset when bad things happen also. If we have been given free will how can God change the actions of one human and not the other. You want God to stop the terrorist before he flies into the World Trade Center, but not stop you when you are going to harm someone or yourself.
Yes, I need faith and needed faith when I came to that point in my life were I trusted.
As for the rest of your argument. Sorry, not interested.
11 January 2006, on 2:10 pm
“I don’t believe I’ve exhibited any troll behavior, so if I have please let me know.”
Not that I’ve seen. You’re cool. However, like I said, we’ve been burned more often than not.
“This does seem to be a very closed group, particularly to my kind. As you are the author of this thread, if you desire myself or others from Christdot to leave, and not return.”
Personally, I don’t want theists like you to leave. I have no trouble losing the trolls. As I said, we’re never going to fully understand each other but that doesn’t mean we need to be nasty to each other.
But, I make no statements for anyone else here; I speak only for myself. .
“I didn’t believe that you made the claim of the superiority of atheist sites.”
Good. Just wanted to be sure we’re clear on that.
“However, I do wonder what your blog would have said if you had pretended to be a Christian and visited 35 atheist sites.”
I considered doing this as a follow-up, however I’m not sure I could convincingly play a theist. Perhaps that’s something for your end to try out *wink wink hint hint*
11 January 2006, on 2:22 pm
“The only evidence I can offer you is that feeling inside of you when someone says to you “Jesus Loves You”
Which I am sure you already understand is not evidence at all.
“You ultimately have to decide.”
Already have done, thanks.
“If I’m wrong I have lost nothing. I’ve had a good life and shared it with a lot of like minded people. If you are wrong you have lost an eternity of peace and love.”
Pascal’s Wager is a logical fallacy, as has already been noted. If you have spent your life worshipping the wrong god of the thousands that have been worshipped thoroughout time, you will also lose “an eternity of peace and love.” I’ll see you in hell.
For the sake of argument let’s assume he does exist. If that’s a given then:
1. He created me as I am - a freethinking atheist
2. He planned for me to be this way
3. And because he’s omniscient he knew I would make the choices I have made
Agreed? If so, then he created me specifically to go to hell. What a right bastard.
Or on the other hand, if he exists and he is the loving, benevolent father ya’ll seem to like to portray him as, then wouldn’t he just forgive and forget?
~~
“As for the rest of your argument. Sorry, not interested.”
Translation: I don’t understand what you’re saying, but it might dent my faith so away I run.”
11 January 2006, on 2:23 pm
“I have no evidence that you have not already heard and torn apart.”
Thank you for the honestly.
11 January 2006, on 2:36 pm
Away I run. Have a nice life. God Save you if he chooses to do so.
11 January 2006, on 2:41 pm
Hi Lya,
I’m so happy you compiled all this data…. but it doesn’t make me change my opinion. Both of my grandparents were preachers of God’s word. I’m probably more convinced there is a God, then you are convinced that there isn’t a God, but I have faith.
Faith is my name, Guess you can figure that out. Faith is the game. And I have a lot of faith to macth the fact that you lack any. I would be really happy if you would just leave this website. I don’t need your lack of understanding of the word of God. After all I won’t have to live with you through-out eternity. And you don’t have to worry about spending eternity with me.
I surely pray that some day you will see our light. Jesus said he was the light of the world. And I believe his words. He came to this world to save both of us, but if you have no faith, I will only pray a few pray’s on your behalf. After all, your heart and mind has been totally blinded to the truth. You’re so sure that we are the one’s that are wrong, we’ll probably never change your mind.
All atheist are not welcomed in the afterlife, and according to the Holy Bible. After you died, you’ll never see the light of day again. Only Fire! And believe it or not, christain really don’t want to hear your opinion, no more than we want to hear yours.
This is a Christinan website, No evil thoughts are welcomed here. You go you’re way and we’ll go ours. I can see there are a lot of atheist for you to share your thoughts with. No evil intended. If atheist don’t like us the leave us along.
Regards
Faith
11 January 2006, on 2:52 pm
I’m upset when bad things happen also.
Well, that’s nice to know — even though I’d still claim you’re not as bothered as most atheists I know. I mean, it’s not really clear how you COULD feel that badly, if you KNOW that god exists and every crappy thing you see is justified in the end. (It sucks when my kid gets a shot, but I don’t feel THAT badly, since I know he’s not going to get polio.)
If we have been given free will how can God change the actions of one human and not the other. You want God to stop the terrorist before he flies into the World Trade Center, but not stop you when you are going to harm someone or yourself.
You really think the FWD answers this? And who said either/or? That’s like saying a parent should stop one child from doing something stupid but not the other. But intervention seems to be desired regardless, wouldn’t you say? I mean, we’re ordinarily obligated to intervene when we can, and when our own lives are not in danger — especially when it’s a situation where the suffering is unnecessary.
But that’s the one type of thing that your god doesn’t seem to worry about all that much. (Nor you, I’d assume.)
As for the rest of your argument. Sorry, not interested.
I assume this is how you “tear apart” arguments?
Yes, it might be best if you left. You end up running away when you’re here, anyway.
11 January 2006, on 2:53 pm
“I choose my actions. I am responsible for my actions. I take care of myself. I am not god. I do not need a god, for I have myself. I need no one to pacify my whimpers or push me to act. I need only find the one that performs these tasks: myself.”
Divinus 1:34
“If you can not handle yourself, do not turn to a greater power. It will not heal your wounds, for medicine does. It will not wipe away your tears, for friends/family do. It will not provide you with a job, for employers do. It will not save the world, for only heros do. It will not give you a husband and family, for only you can. Look deep inside and find the person that controls you, for it is only you.”
Alrightus 5:67
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