Fighting for atheist rights
20 February 2006 by SeanThere’s an article in today’s San Francisco Chronicle about some “out” atheists who are trying to start up a movement to protect atheist rights much the same as gay rights and other civil rights movements in the past (and present).
Snippets:
Gathered around the plastic red-and-white tablecloths in the back room of a San Francisco hofbrau, 30 of the Bay Area’s “out” atheists were recasting themselves as the protagonists of America’s newest civil rights struggle.
As they described the strain of being openly atheistic in an increasingly religious culture, many wished their godless crusade would emulate one social movement in particular — the fight for gay rights. [...]
“When a congressional aide reads our material alongside that from the NEA (National Education Association) or the Baptist Joint Committee, it says ‘Atheist’ at the top,” Brown said, proffering a business card that says, “Atheists. Humanists. Freethinkers. Americans,” with the last word in bold type.
When it comes to atheism, she said, “we’re not avoiding the word.” affair mp3 1890mp3 minutu w 140 udarowmp3 thugz 11082pm 04 tetris mp3mp3 story 0st westside18l mp3 powodzeniatype id 1491 mp3 track dnstreet 110th mp3 Map
20 February 2006, on 3:03 pm
This part really cracked me up:
Yes, the huge atheist conspiracy is all around us…
20 February 2006, on 3:16 pm
The part I don’t like in the article is playing loose with words like “emulate” and “compare” when referring to atheism and gay rights. Emulating a movement and equating the discrimination are two very different things. The author does not clearly address these separately in the writing, or interviewing, or something. They state that atheists are emulating and that “privately” gay rights organizations say the comparison isn’t exact. But I don’t see that in the quotes. It comes across as the author inserting the wedge where it does not necessarily exist. You might emulate, you might compare, but you need to be talking about one or the other clearly.
20 February 2006, on 10:16 pm
Here’s an article about someone who actually came to his senses -
http://www.sptimes.com/2006/02/17/Northoftampa/Ex_minister_walks_ath.shtml
21 February 2006, on 12:05 am
Attitudes about civil rights seem to resemble those about immigration. The last one through the door always wants to close it behind him.
The reaction from gay rights organizations to this admiration is muted, even among those that usually have no problem taking bold political stands. Privately, some point out that the comparison of atheists to historically persecuted groups isn’t exact — atheism is arguably a choice, not an orientation, and unlike racial minorities, the godless aren’t discriminated against on the basis of their looks.
Yup. Just as some conservative black preachers said that gay civil rights can’t be compared to black civil rights because gay people “choose to be gay.”
Man, even gay rights activists aren’t gonna stick up for us. How more marginalized could we get?!
Here is one for you:
Faced with the staggering ignorance and hatred spewed by the god-fearing on a daily basis throughout the world, as a rational person, I have no choice but to be godless. I didn’t choose to have a rational mind. I was born with one.
By trampling on my right to live in a rational, secular society, you are discriminating against my brain. If it’s wrong to discriminate against one’s epidermis and one’s hormones, then it should also be wrong to discriminate against one’s brain.
21 February 2006, on 1:36 am
Why don’t we call ourselves normals and the believers paranormalists.
21 February 2006, on 3:52 am
Although they are probably preaching to the choir, as a matter of principle, I am very glad to see that atheists are being vocal (in my area, no less), but, overall, I am ambivalent about the effectiveness of this particular means or style of asserting our rights.
21 February 2006, on 7:33 am
I diagree, UberKuh: Capitol Hill and the courts (and out here in places like California, through ballot initiaties) are the only real places I can think of to assert our rights. What else do we have?
21 February 2006, on 11:12 am
The only way to assert our rights is as an organized mass. As the article points out, politicians will only give lip service to Atheists if we either a) have a lot of money to lobby, or b) form a large enough bloc in their district.
I found this article refreshing: I’ve felt for some time now that being an atheist puts me in a “persecuted minority” not unlike gays. I’m different. I’m not accepted by my society. If anyone finds out, it might cost me my job. I could be ostricized at work. I can’t raise my kids with my beliefs without fear that the schools will force another set of beliefs on them - not only with the other kids harass them, but most of the school staff will be unsympathetic and possibly try to “educate” them to another set of beliefs.
That I have to live with such weighty concerns in a country where freedom of speech and freedom of religion are supposedly cornerstones is unacceptable. My views should be tolerated at the very least. Someone needs to bring about such social change; these folks in San Francisco are taking an important first step.
21 February 2006, on 1:07 pm
Sean, you’re right. I shouldn’t be ambivalent about this. It’s a great thing to get out the word (as opposed to the Word).
21 February 2006, on 1:22 pm
Part of the problem is that civil rights groups have been historically so focused on their particular cause, they tend to lose sight of the larger picture: namely that as long as groups can be marginalized, a divide and conquer strategy will continue to be employed. Although not perfect by any means, one example to look towards might be labor unions. While primarily focused on their particular causes, they generally show solidarity with each other. While the overarching cause is the same (promoting the rights of the workers against management) the various groups represented are often quite different; however, that does not stop them from sticking up for each other quite often. A good friend of mine is an employee of a union. Although he doesn’t work for the UAW, his entire union only buys American cars to show solidarity with another union. Civil rights groups would do much better for themselves if they adopted this model. Unfortunately, what often happens is competition between the groups for who’s the biggest victim. The sad part of this situation is that atheists, who are clearly a marginalized group, are by and large supportive and sympathetic of other groups’ causes, as evidenced by many of the topics on this board, while often ignored by the same groups we support.
21 February 2006, on 1:33 pm
I didn’t choose to have a rational mind. I was born with one.
I thought this phrasing was funny, because there’s a part of me, after reading this familiar way of putting things, that wants to add (like the others do), “Yeah, cuz that’s the way God made…err…ummm…nevermind.”
21 February 2006, on 1:58 pm
The fact that we have to fight for our rights is just more verification that freedom is not important to the very people who have sworn on oath to protect those rights.
With one knee to the lord and the other to the flag. You do NOT stand for freedom while living on your knees.
Maybe this could be a lead post or something.
Pending U.S. anti-evolution legislation currently includes: Alabama SB 240, Arkansas HB 2607, Georgia HB 179, Kansas SB 168, Michigan HB 5251, Mississippi SB 2286, Missouri HB 1266, New York 8036, Ohio HB 481, Oklahoma HB 2107, Pennsylvania HB 1007, South Carolina SB 909, Texas HB 1447 and Utah SB 96.
Full story at;
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060221084516.htm
If your state is on the list EMAIL your reps and let them know this is a bad idea. Lets get this nonsense eliminated from any consideration at all
21 February 2006, on 2:07 pm
I didn’t choose to have a rational mind. I was born with one.
I thought this phrasing was funny, because there’s a part of me, after reading this familiar way of putting things, that wants to add (like the others do), “Yeah, cuz that’s the way God made…err…ummm…nevermind.”
I was, of course, being sarcastic and poking fun of their endless “my civil rights are more important because I didn’t choose to be the way I am and you did” arguments.
Maybe I would have illustrated my point better by flipping the whole thing on its head:
Brain-damaged people didn’t choose to be brain-damaged. Therefore they should be issued commercial airline pilot’s licenses?
The point I was making is all of this is holier-than-thou-ism, and should instead be reduced to the idea of all law-abiding, tax-paying citizens of a democracy receiving certain constutional rights.
21 February 2006, on 2:30 pm
And by the way, Bob: I believe God made me an atheist. And he did so for reasons we will never truly comprehend. And there is nothing you can ever say or do that will shake my belief in that.
21 February 2006, on 4:27 pm
This is an excellent sign. We gotta start somewhere. The day will soon come where groups like this are springing up all over America.
21 February 2006, on 5:07 pm
“And by the way, Bob: I believe God made me an atheist.”
I have a sneaky suspicion your parents taught you to be an atheist.
As far as us gays supporting atheists based solely on you being fringe? Why? Many of us happen to be theists. Why on earth would I support a lack of belief I do not share? It would be like us going against our own religious views to give you creditability. I got news for you. I’m not interested even slightly in helping you fight your own battle for acceptance. Leave us OUT OF IT!
21 February 2006, on 6:41 pm
Did I miss the meeting where you were elected Gay Spokesperson, G-n-P? Just because some asshole black preachers wouldn’t accept that the cause of civil rights includes that of gay rights (as noted here earlier) doesn’t mean they spoke for black people (see, for example, the late Coretta Scott King’s thoughts on the matter — she saw the inclusiveness of civil rights). And you don’t speak for gay people, many of whom realize that prejudice against parts of our self-identity that we’re entitled to embrace — racial, sexual, and religious — are of a piece, and all should be eradicated for the evil that they all share.
21 February 2006, on 8:06 pm
“Did I miss the meeting where you were elected Gay Spokesperson, G-n-P?”
You may or may not have noticed my use of the word “I” repeatedly. I never said we. Please don’t accuse me of claiming to be a spokesman for any group. What you have done in your personal attack is fail to answer my question. Why should I (there again the “I” as opposed to “we” or “us”) support a lack of belief, when it goes AGAINST my beliefs?
Why did you on the one hand tell me that I am not a spokesman, then regarding gays, you continue on to state “many of whom realize that prejudice against parts of our…” Are you our spokesman?
I assume there are many gay atheist’s. That subgroup is already on your side I would imagine. You seem to want unconditional acceptance. I can’t give it, nor do I want to.
21 February 2006, on 8:15 pm
“And by the way, Bob: I believe God made me an atheist.”
I have a sneaky suspicion your parents taught you to be an atheist.
That was called a joke, genius.
I got news for you. I’m not interested even slightly in helping you fight your own battle for acceptance. Leave us OUT OF IT!
Thanks. As has been pointed out on this site, atheists are often more likely to fight fort he civil rights of others far more than those others will fight for atheists’ civil rights. Thanks for proving our point.
If you spent even a modicum of time looking at the posts on this site, you will see we defend gay rights on a regular basis… And this is how you talk to us?
You must be a monumental fuckhead.
And by the way, you’re welcome.
21 February 2006, on 8:20 pm
I assume there are many gay atheist’s. That subgroup is already on your side I would imagine. You seem to want unconditional acceptance. I can’t give it, nor do I want to.
I always knew that there was something mentally retarded about gay theists. Anybody who embraces a religion whose very teachings say that they themselves are sinful scum has some sort of masochistic streak, or is just a total whackjob.
GnP (if indeed you are either and not some asshole baiter): we are not asking you to support our lack of belief. We are asking for protection from yours. Ya know, like the separation of church and state that is written in the U.S. Constitution. Do you not support the separation of church and state? This is the paramount atheist civil rights issue. For instance, we don’t want our children taught creationism in public school. If you do, then yes, you are our enemy. If you don’t, then what are you screaming at us for? Atheists don’t impose their beliefs on others. That’s what theists do. All we want is protection from that. Period.
How would you like it if we told you you had to have straight sex, and that your children had to be straight, or if you came out of the closet, we would fire you from your job?
21 February 2006, on 9:41 pm
I have the right of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as well as those rights which are “self-evident”. I have often wondered why that is so hard for people to understand. Not for me for my life but by others about my life.I have and use those rights and I do not need anyones permission. That is what rights means. That is what makes the fighting over it so ridiculous. We only have the rights we use.
GnP If you really are Gay and you really are a believer? I guess you’ll be going to hell with the rest of us here so at least give us a little consideration.LOL More likely you have been traumatized by the religionstas for all of your life and you can’t break free of the mind lock your religion has on you.
JIM
21 February 2006, on 10:19 pm
Gay and Proud,
How does if feel to be Dan the Strawman’s sock puppet? I had thought, Dan, you had said:
“There is a ton more I could and should say, but I’m through here.
Goodbye Gifs”
And were serious- guess you were just too hard up for some atheist action, eh Dan-O the Strawman-O.
21 February 2006, on 11:01 pm
“Thanks. As has been pointed out on this site, atheists are often more likely to fight fort he(sic) civil rights of others far more than those others will fight for atheists’ civil rights.”
OK, you labeled me a genius for not getting your joke, so forgive me when I implied I wish this was some sort of theocratic society. I call this a very secular nation that was based on our inalienable rights. It still is. Personally, I am offended when I see “in God we trust” on currency, but it spends the same. Money is the root of all evil they say, why put God’s name on it? As far as what is taught in schools, there are all kinds of mythology courses available in most high schools. Do you object to the star in a circle symbol because it is promoting Pagan theism (there is a growing number of Pagans out here in theist land, so it is just as noteworthy as references to God. http://www.scotiagrendel.com/images/decals/us100.jpg
A common symbol for Zeus was the eagle. The Dove was common for Aphrodite. Remove all of this stuff from the Government as well.
The caduceus of Hermes is still used in government run clinics. Let’s throw it out so as not to offend anyone.
I Know, you don’t want creation taught in school as science. I think atheism is already winning that battle, don’t ya think? Why don’t you just do what rational theists do? START your OWN school? Teach whatever ya want as long as it conforms to certain guidelines. Let the taxpayers vote and find out what the people want taught. Believe me, as much as I hate Bush for his sneaky underhanded ballot initiatives, I can’t say the people want to see me happily married (I stress happily). I know it is a matter of time, and people of my orientation will be allowed to marry in a secular way. Gays have not even remotely received our rights yet. You have all of yours. Well, except what I referred to about references to God and the gods in government.
Oh, and I have been fired for being gay. I work with kids. Face the phobias about that everyday.
“I always knew that there was something mentally retarded about gay theists. Anybody who embraces a religion whose very teachings say that they themselves are sinful scum has some sort of masochistic streak, or is just a total whackjob”
I think this kind of hate speech stands on it’s own for what it is. Did I mention my religion to you? No, you typecast me into some religion of your own mind.
If you really do march on gay rights issues, I applaud you. It shows me that you have some decency in you after all. I’m sorry I am just not as anal about seperation of church and state as you are. If the day comes when the state tries to dictate religion, then I will feel like you till then, I doubt it
Jimmer, your first paragraph was pretty cool, and it made a lot more sense than your second one.
22 February 2006, on 12:50 am
Gay and Proud, you’ve done a good job of proving my earlier point. Here you have a board full of people sympathetic and supportive of equal rights for gays and all you can say is “stay away from me you freaks. I don’t want any part of your social deviance. By the way, I have it worse, so there!” Keep telling yourself that you’re the only one who has it rough.
22 February 2006, on 2:40 am
Marcus said: Guess you were just too hard up for some atheist action, eh Dan-O the Strawman-O.
Marcus: did we find another imposter? Is G&P the Strawman? Sable Chicky tried sneaking in here that way once, but I caught her redhanded.
Man, those telepathy caps Ron shipped out to us last month are really paying off!
22 February 2006, on 10:38 am
Sean,
His rhetorical style matches Dan’s as well as some of his formatting techniques. Dark Forces from a while back is also one of Dan’s sock-puppets.
It also helps my claim that thier IP’s match.
23 February 2006, on 2:30 pm
Hmmm….GNP isn’t me, but I think I know who she is. I am surprized she is the only one that posted to your blog. I have given the web address to approximately 15 interested students here. I am not now nor have I ever been gay or especially involved with gay political issues aside from showing support for friends and coworkers.
Let me update you on what I have been doing.
I have posted on the bulletin boards across campus that I was forming an informal fellowship among thiest students who feel pressured by athiest professors or peers. It is not a Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, Budhist or other faith oriented group. The only requirement is that they have some kind of faith. It is mostly a rapidly growing support group, but I have been teaching them how to reply and argue with athiests in their own language and rhetoric. I use Gifs to show what atheists REALLY think when they talk among themselves. Kind of like a public unveiling of the real atheist mindset. I told you in the past, you are arming me, and I meant it.
I’m only surprized that GNP is the only one that has spoken up here, but I don’t encourage them to debate Gifs.
I don’t have a clue who “Dark Forces” is, and don’t recall any threads with that nickname, but I will ask around. If it is indeed the same IP address, than I would have to assume it came out of this same network. If Dark Forces was here before me, then it is coincidence, but if it was after that, then I would assume the opposite.
As I said, I do not encourage anyone from our group to debate here, and I will ask them not to, that is unless they want to be called my “sock-puppets”. We will continue reading Gifs simply for the educational value, and for informal discussion amongst ourselves.
23 February 2006, on 2:42 pm
Kind of like a public unveiling of the real atheist mindset. I told you in the past, you are arming me, and I meant it.
Arming you against what, Dan? The great secularization of America? Get a history book. The country, as we have pointed out time and again, was founded as a secularized nation. Unfortunately, that very idea has been under threat by the religious hordes ever since.
Like your side needs any more arming. Like you aren’t stampeding over the Constitution every time we turn around. What are you doing, encouraging your students to argue with their professors using faith? That will teach them good critical thinking skills for sure.
23 February 2006, on 2:49 pm
I’d also love to know what the atheist “mindset” is, since we pride ourselves in being free thinkers.
Read this and let us know how and why you think we are a unified mindset and should be fought.
Snippet:
While the “out” atheists tend largely to be older, male and white, their political views are not monolithic, said Brown and the other atheists gathered at Tommy’s Joynt. They cover the range of opinions on everything from gay marriage to abortion to taxes to the war in Iraq.
During the recent confirmation hearings of Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, the Secular Coalition was one of few groups expressing no interest in the nominee’s view of Roe vs. Wade. It was more interested in his views on the First Amendment’s establishment clause, which says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
BTW, if Gay & Proud is one of your students, you sure didn’t teach her/him about loving others in a good Christian way. She seems to care not one bit about anyone’s civil rights but her own.
23 February 2006, on 5:32 pm
Dan,
You have lost all ethos present and future- should have thought about that before you took chances with your “students”. I’m curious- what do you teach? Semantic Rule Bending 101? I’m sure your university suffers from a low federal ranking in scholarship.
23 February 2006, on 5:42 pm
PS- I know that you are a fifty year old man and I know what you look like.
24 February 2006, on 2:20 am
[...] Something that struck me in reading the article that inspired my earlier post about atheist rights lobbyists. [...]
24 February 2006, on 5:04 pm
I use Gifs to show what atheists REALLY think when they talk among themselves. Kind of like a public unveiling of the real atheist mindset. I told you in the past, you are arming me, and I meant it.
BWAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAA!…[*tears*-*redface*]
Shit, Dan, you fucking KILL ME, dude…
That’s the funniest shit that’s come down the pipeline in a while…
Are you for real?…
It is mostly a rapidly growing support group, but I have been teaching them how to reply and argue with athiests in their own language and rhetoric.
You mean you teach them how to say the most stupid shit and feel comfortable in their illogical claims about the world? Good luck with that.
And, if you’re forwarding stuff…
SHOUT-OUT TO DAN’S SUPPORT GROUP! PLEASE DON’T HESITATE TO STOP ON BY WHEN YOU THINK DAN (1) IS GOOD ENOUGH TO BE AN ACTUAL AUTHORITY ON LOGIC AND ARGUMENT, AND (2) HAS TAUGHT YOU ENOUGH TO FEEL COMFORTABLE ABOUT DUMB YOU ARE.
Yes, Dan, these are the things that atheists REALLY think…
Love your post, Dan. That was MINT. Gonna save that one…
25 February 2006, on 3:04 pm
AHHHH Hell!! Circle up the wagons men and you. Yeah you SEAN Go tell pa that Dan is a coming and he’s armed.
26 February 2006, on 3:25 pm
Dumbass danny boy,
“I told you in the past, you are arming me, and I meant it.”
Arming you for what ?? Perhaps to fight against enforcing the Constitutional separation of church and state ?? Your little fellowship sounds like a “just us” crap club and frankly you don’t really belong in it since you’re not even a true christian with your stupid in-between pick and choose beliefs. You have enough sense to reject some crap but not enough sense to reject it all. In a way this makes you even more screwed up than the dumb cluck and frankly with a mindset like that you absolutely should not be an educator. You’re nothing but a major ass.
Also you do realize that atheists tend to be smart people and often have professions in science or technology. Do you really think that most theists can communicate on an equivalent level of logic, rational thought and critical thinking ? Heck many theists can’t even spell and don’t have a clue about basic science, they’re just arguing the inconsistent and illogical crap that was written in some primitive fractured fairy tale book thousands of years ago. Additionally they believe in imaginary beings and places so there’s no way they can have a reasonable discussion regardless of how much you teach them common fundie diversionary tactics.
27 February 2006, on 7:30 am
Gotta love xian arrogance.