A shout out to female atheists
24 February 2006 by Sean
There was something that struck me in reading the article that inspired my earlier post about atheist rights lobbyists.
The article said:
Of those who are “out,” relatively few are young or women. Only a third or so of the folks at Tommy’s Joynt were women, and more than half the crowd had silver hair.
“When a young person shows up to a meeting, they usually always tell me, ‘Go talk to them,’ ” said Adrienne Mowery, a 32-year-old San Franciscan who has been an atheist since her childhood in Texas.
Mowery struggled to explain why more young people don’t turn up at atheist gatherings. Are young atheists just too apathetic to come to get organized, or are most godless types really just white-haired retirees?
“It takes a lot of thinking to get to the point where you don’t believe,” said Jackson, who is 73. As for the gender gap, he says, “Atheism is a head thing. Women might be more inclined to be involved in something rather than to sit around and talk and talk.”
We have a few atheist gals on this site, including Sharon and Lya as bloggers… But it does seem that the number of guys here far outweighs the ladies.
I actually know several female atheists, including my beloved sister. But to tell you the truth, I have never dated one. They have always been either weak theists or some hippy-dippy New Age thing, like neo-paganism. It’s been strange never truly having a partner that sees the world the way you do. I am currently seeing a woman who was raised Roman Catholic, and although very rational, she stops short of denouncing her Xianity. I strongly suspect she finds my atheism kinda interesting, but would never actually go there herself.
So, atheist women of GifS: I ask you… What has your experience been? Has it been hard to find fellow atheist females to make friends with? [All of my closest male friends are atheist or agnostic, and we find great comfort in one another.] How do you handle this? What do you see as the reason for this perceived gender gap?
Would love to hear your opinions.
24 February 2006, on 7:40 am
It probably relates to the socialization of females in our culture. One of the strongest and most consistent messages women receive is to submit, always submit, and to never have opinions, thoughts, or feelings that make anybody feel bad.
Women who have strong beliefs–and actually dare to talk about them–are “shrill” or “bitches” or “harpies.” Women who argue or debate are told that they’ll never get a husband (which, supposedly, is a fate worse than death).
Women are told they are “nurturing” by nature rather than aggressive, and that they are “emotional” or “sensitive” rather than rational and intelligent. Women are told, time and time again, that they are dependent, that they need to be taken care of, that the world is too much for their delicate little selves to handle. They’re told that they aren’t independent moral agents capable of making their own choices, but that they need a man or a government to make their most important decisions for them.
Men are told to be aggressive, strong, confrontational, rational…basically, they’re told to embody most the traits that a person needs in order to confront entrenched superstition. Women are told that they are innately submissive, helpless, emotional, non-questioning sheeple who exist to serve others.
It doesn’t surprise me that so many women submit to the abusive rule of a paternalistic diety who abuses them at His whim. Most of them are trained to submit to paternalistic jackassery from the moment they exit the womb.
24 February 2006, on 8:42 am
. . . which may go a long way toward explaining what seems to be a gender-based disparity in self-esteem issues and the resultant therapy.
To all of the above, I say Ramen.
24 February 2006, on 8:56 am
I was raised in a fundie sect of xtianity (Church of Christ). Whenever I was outspoken or asked too many embarrassing questions (such as why are there two different lineages for Jesus?), people would tell me that it “wasn’t my place” to “act in such a fashion.” Then they would quote some verse at me, like I Tim 2:11-12, which says a woman is not allowed to have authority and must be silent. No amount of talking about sexist cultures of several thousand years ago not having bearing on modern humans ever had any result.
In college, I remember hearing a sermon that essentially said providing a college education for women was a waste of money, since the pinacle of a woman’s success will only be to marry and raise children for the glory of god. I was already beginning to lose my faith, but that blatant sexism pretty much sealed it for me.
I have a few girlfriends who are atheist (except when flying for some reason), but most of my friends are theists of some sort. And frankly, it is alienating. I’m not evangelical about it, but I do like to point out where idiocy reigns. (And yes, I’ve been told that “boys don’t like girls who are smart and outspoken” before–by my own family!)
All of my family are theists, and my atheism shocks them. They either don’t believe me (”Oh, you still believe in god–you’re just angry at him” type of a thing), or they are “praying for me,” which is just annoying. I did marry a catholic who doesn’t attend (except when his family is in town). So those types of conversations with him have to be a bit more delicate.
I cope by reading atheist blogs. I come here and think, “Yay! Rationals!” It’s refreshing to find people who do not put any credence into fairy tales and superstitions. But ultimately, I walk alone in my atheism. I’ll have to move from Texas to find more rational folk. Oh, until that happy day!
I agree with Pete–we just aren’t encouraged to question everything. And there’s something about flock mentality–when you’re inside one of the cults (and they all are) … you are emotionally blackmailed and constantly bombarded with guilt. Then you are surrounded by other women in a sort of extended family, so there are also warm, fuzzy feelings. It’s altogether a confusing and intimidating place. Thank nothing that I finally broke out.
24 February 2006, on 8:59 am
My ex girlfriend is an atheist.
Also, that woman in the picture is pretty cute.
24 February 2006, on 9:11 am
It’s very hard. I have very few friends, and all of them are theists. I’m a stay at home mom, and it’s been my experience that most stay at home moms are xian. Every time I bring my children out to play somewhere I meet other women, who almost always bring church into the conversation. I say nothing, because what’s the point? I don’t want to get into a conversation that I’m uncomfortable with in public, and in front of children. I just know that chances are, I won’t be seeing them again.
I’ve recently joined the local humanist group and I’m probably the youngest female, and the only stay at home mother. I think that I (and many others out there, no doubt) represent a real minority in atheist women - an atheist mother who chooses to stay at home rather than a career.
I have become outspoken only in the last couple of months. Why? For my children. I need to set the example for them.
Anyway, just some of my thoughts.
24 February 2006, on 9:13 am
Even though I seldom comment on blogs I just couldn’t resist this one. Lifelong, 69 year old, female atheist here. And thanks for the sweeping generalizations, MT Pete, as if we haven’t heard them a million times already.
24 February 2006, on 9:19 am
Sorry about that. For some reason, the post was in more of a hurry than I was.
Activism is a matter of temperament. I’m not a proselytizer, or a joiner, and my religion or lack of it is nobody’s business unless it’s relevant to a conversation. And considering that activists are only a small percentage of any movement, belief system, etc., there are probably a lot of nonbelievers out there who will never be heard from. Aside from the cliches about female nurturing, passiveness, etc., I think women are less likely to go charging off for some cause, especially one in which activism may be only marginally effective.
24 February 2006, on 9:44 am
I’ve met more female atheists than you might think, but only because I’ve been so deeply involved in organized humanism and atheism for the last half-dozen years. However, I have seen many college atheist groups gradually go from 50-50 sex ratio to being almost all male, which may be less to do with atheism than to do with the format of the events and activities these groups take part in. Aggressive and argumentative meeting styles tend to push away women. (Not me, but I’m unusual.)
There may also be something to the idea that women get turned off by a belief system with no nurturing component, but that’s just a hypothesis at this point. Moving to atheism from a god-centered worldview is fucking scary for everyone, I think- knowing that there is no next life, no cosmic protector, and no one else responsible is pretty daunting, but it might be that women are less likely to get past that than men. (Again, not me, but I’m not the archetypical female.)
As for the graying of the secular community in general, I wrote an article in a book about that for the IHEU a few years ago. I think that many people are comfortable with secularism in college and high school even, but when they are in their late 20’s and early 30’s social pressure kicks in that says they need to have a social group with moral tenets for raising kids. I haven’t done any studies on this, so I can’t say whether it’s worse for those with religious childhoods than those raised as atheists, but I suspect it is. People who don’t believe, themselves, think they need to give that to their kids so the kids won’t be ostracized or excluded.
Additionally, humanism is not picking up the slack in this department. We know that humanism is a perfectly decent moral compass and that more Christians than atheists are found in US prisons. However, the social networks of atheists fall into two camps- college kids or retirees. What is there for the ones in between? Zilch.
That’s my analysis anyway, take it as you like.
24 February 2006, on 9:50 am
Cassandra, I know what you mean. My wife is in the same situation and its extremely frustrating for her. We are homeschooling our son (because of food allergies) and we were involved with a small group of other homeschoolers that disintegrated since they found our unwillingness to celebrate religious holidays personally offensive.
You think finding atheist stay-at-home moms is tough? Try finding atheist homeschoolers!
24 February 2006, on 10:33 am
I’m a female atheist in Germany, where I’m part of a sound 40% self-described atheists and agnostics (the other 60% are various sorts of theists, none getting over 25% of the whole population). We have, however, only a measly 7% anti-theists, who hold that gods are bad for both the individual and the society (I’m one of them).
Interestingly, and supporting the thesis MT Pete put forward, is the fact that here women are a minority (sizeable, though, at 40%) of atheists and agnostics.
Women’s equality is further along the road than in the USA here. The state sponsors various initiatives to promote equality, like offering “parent holiday” for both men and women, three years that can be split among parents (goes for homosexual couples, too, btw). The traditional roles are still etched into peoples’ minds, though, so that stay-at-home fathers are regarded as something odd. Similarily both parents have a right to “extraordinary holidays”, days in which they can care for a child; either parent can insist on them.
Religion was always a means to keep humans under control. As Mt Pete describes, this control was always stricter over women and enforced with social/secular stigmata and taboos, whereas men only got the religious whip.
I would propose two things to discuss:
1. that there is a direct correlation between the amount of pressure put on the individual and the likelihood to stay in a system of belief.
2. that the disparity in the male/female distribution among atheists is a measure of equality for either gender.
Nota bene: I’m formulating this gender-neutral (or at least trying to :-)).
24 February 2006, on 10:43 am
Splendid answers, all, and welcome aboard to our first time posters!
24 February 2006, on 10:50 am
I agree pretty much with what MT Pete says, women are more culturally conditioned to shut up, behave and do as we’re told, and religion is about nothing if it isn’t about doing as you’re told.
I think in future it will even out, as we move further from following traditional roles, and women realise that they have more reasons to reject religion, at least the major Western religions, than men do.
24 February 2006, on 10:57 am
Sharona, I had to chuckle about leaving Texas. I too reside in the land of myths and fairytales. Specifically in rural Texas. Where to go? Just where in the world, much less the U.S. is it that one can move to where the majority of the folks in the community are rational? Where, if you don’t partake of all the theistic bs you’er not ostricized as some sort of lurking demon? I’m a stay at home dad (a gray haired one at that) and much as Cassandra observed, it is rather difficult to suffer thru any discourse down at the local soccer field/ball field/school functions. Never-the-less I have instilled in my two sons the concept of “how can this be true”. So far it has served them well and both realized they too (the youngest being 14) will have to get the hell out of here.
24 February 2006, on 11:31 am
100% life long atheist female here. It’s hard to explain. I will let that stand as my disclaimer for less-than consise writing.
In my life, atheism not a “for” or “against” it’s a “lack of interest in.” It is not any different than my lack of interest in skydiving, scrapbooking, NASCAR, body art, or beets. For me personally, then, seeking out a group that is based on the non interest in something seemed strange. The I Don’t Care a Whit About NASCAR Club. The Beet-Free Society. Scrapbookers Anonymous.
I don’t care to debate with beet-lovers who have a problem with me not gorging on them on my own time. My non-interest in NASCAR extends to not wasting a single cent to slap some anti- sticker on the precious bumper of my car. I see no need to study the fine art of scrapbooking in order to convince you I’m not interested in doing it, which you wouldn’t believe anyway. I’ve seen tattoos, thanks, and do not feel compelled to “just try” it to convince someone else that yes, I really don’t want a tattoo. No, a disinterest in skydiving is not a personal attack on your favorite passtime.
You like avacado green? Cool. I like terra cotta. Life is grand. If you don’t like terra cotta, don’t put it on your walls. If you don’t like my walls, I’m not repainting them for you. Get a grip, or go home and bask in the glory of your 70s kitchen appliance collection.
It is not my life’s mission to make avacodo green lovers feel better about their appliances, nor is it to add to their persecution complex by alloting my spare time to proclaim how not avacodo green my home is, form the “So Not Avacado Society”, and then sit around and wonder what the heck else brings us together as a group other than not having dated kitchens.
Thing is, there are no anti-skydiver societies or people trying to shove beets down my throat, but there are Xtians who just don’t get that I don’t want their color on my walls or in our schools simply so they can feel more secure in their personal decorating scheme decisions. I do feel a need, as I get older and more irritated by the gall of such insecure believers to intrude on my right to not believe, to regroup and change my ways.
No, not by becoming Xtian through harrassment! Silly. By finding out what it is that I can do to stand against that without just being “against” it. I need to be “for” something. What are atheists, as a group, for? Is there more than just “Well, we’re not theists”? Since I don’t know, I choose to be for specific things. For equality. For reproductive autonomy. For hand-made pottery. That is my approach to things for now.
That, and the venting quality of “God is for Suckers!”
24 February 2006, on 11:44 am
Stephanie Says:
However, I have seen many college atheist groups gradually go from 50-50 sex ratio to being almost all male, which may be less to do with atheism than to do with the format of the events and activities these groups take part in.
This leads me to what has kept me from joining something based on being an atheist. When I decided to start seeking out places for comraderie (starting with the internet), a great deal of it was science heavy discussions or bible-parsing exercises. An “for” interest in science or bible expertise is not what makes me an atheist. I just am. “For” Humanist is the way I probably lean, but for now “venting without having to bone up on science or the bible” suits me.
24 February 2006, on 12:46 pm
I hadn’t ever really thought about it before, but I realize now that most of the atheists or agnostics I’ve met in the past were men. But I’m the atheist in the family (my husband is some kind of fuzzy agnostic/deist who doesn’t really give it much thought).
I was raised in a fundy household, but I was never a very good Christian. I didn’t like going to church, I thought prayer was useless, and I was always headstrong and sensitive to women getting shortchanged.
The first person I ever met who was out about her disblief was a girl at college, and it kind of shocked me at first, but when I got to know her she was a very sweet, happy person and that went a long way toward making me realize it doesn’t take god to be a complete person. Sadly, she died in a car accident a few years later, and I’ve always thought that was a terrible loss.
24 February 2006, on 12:53 pm
Robrt said:
Where to go? Just where in the world, much less the U.S. is it that one can move to where the majority of the folks in the community are rational?
Maybe it’s the company I keep and somehow I am avoiding all the magic crystal freaks, but San Francisco has served me well in this category. ‘Tis a lovely town. Also damned expensive… But there is always Oakland.
Thanks for all the great comments. Fodder for thought, for sure.
24 February 2006, on 1:46 pm
I’m a guy who prefers women who are independent and willing to speak their minds, so I’m living proof that not all men like their women submissive and subservient. I’m not sure how many Christian men are like that, though, since they’ve been trained that girls should speak when spoken to, etc., but there are many nice atheist and agnostic guys out there who prefer a partner who’s their intellectual equal.
It’s really sad that the humanist movement isn’t better at getting it’s message out-I think many people who consider themselves atheists, agnostics or apatheists would find Humanism a fulfilling life stance/philosophy. The local Humanist group here is full of retirees too, though, and they don’t seem all that interested in recruiting or building the membership by bringing in us middle-aged or younger folk. I’d love to have a Humanist parent group to get together and let the kids play, talk about parenting issues, plan acitivities, etc., but it seems difficult to connect with those people.
24 February 2006, on 2:36 pm
Catana,
You wrote, “Thanks for the sweeping generalizations, MT Pete, as if we haven’t heard them a million times already.”
I don’t know what “sweeping generalizations” I made that would upset you. I did not say (nor do I believe) that ANY of the societal stereotypes about females are accurate. I don’t believe females are innately more irrational, helpless, submissive, or dependent than males, but I do believe that females are TOLD that they are those things more often than males are. If you feel that females are not given different messages within society, then I really would love to move to wherever you live.
24 February 2006, on 3:26 pm
Welcome aboard to our first time posters!
I agree. It’s cool that this thread inspired some new commenters to make themselves known.
Additionally, humanism is not picking up the slack in this department.
Stephanie, I’ve been thinking the same thing. I’d like to see our community promoting “Sunday school”-like ethical education for kids. Not with the idea per se of attracting people to humanism, but because the world really seems to be in need of a new generation of sensible citizens. There’s not much in our culture right now that nurtures young people’s feelings of justice, compassion, and responsibility. Here in the US at least, it’s all about trying to get “more” than everyone else by any means necessary.
The liberal christianity I was raised in at least did a decent job on that score–though of course it was mixed in with the silliness and superstition. Today’s born-again style religiosity is, on the other hand, horribly selfish, self-centered, self-righteous. It’s lost anything that was ever decent about it, as far as I can tell–which is the main reason I’ve personally become an outspoken, rather than quiet, non-believer.
Encouragement and best wishes to those who feel alone in their beliefs. I hope you all find at least some of the support you need and deserve on-line.
24 February 2006, on 4:08 pm
I think that I grew up pretty uniquely in that I was raised soley by my mother for most of my childhood and she was not xtian or religious (although she did lean more towards paganism but never in any structured way… she had some literature about it around the house, but the new agey strains of it really turned her off) so I never had to overcome indoctrination of a religion… when I was a kid I had some friends that went to church and I went with them to sunday school out of curiosity a couple of times… when I was a teenager and struggling with forming my own identity and wanting to be a part of a group I researched different religions and went to a couple different types of churches but since I was raised by a feminist and viewed myself as one, I could never join a club that had suppression of women as part of their mission statement (so to speak). Another factor was that as I grew more and more aware of the world and history I saw that most wars and conflict were caused by religious reasons which seemed very counterintuitive to the beliefs that the religions themselves seemed to espouse… I think that one of the tipping points for me was when I got into a discussion/argument about evolution with a close family friend (an uber catholic) that I respected who I had considered very smart… To me, at the time, it seemed that his religion required that he put on blinders and I just didn’t get how that would be okay with any thinking, aware person…
I have had quite a bit of problems with ex’s about my atheism, who at the begining of the relationship described themselves as not religious but when push came to shove couldn’t tolerate my nonbelief in Jebus and his dad and would have long drawn out arguments trying to pressure me into their belief system… I am not really ‘out’ to my mother’s family but neither am I ‘in the closet’… I am lucky in that they are not really religious types although when it comes to my stepdad’s mom (who is really religious) I have never told her that I am an athiest and we just don’t discuss religion…
When it comes to my kids, I have let them attend the occasional church function with friends (like I did back in the day) and have made myself available to questions and explained the historicity of certain stories like noah’s ark (it helps when your partner is taking near eastern history in university) Funnily enough, my daughter doesnt’ take much stock in the whole religion thing (much like her mom, nanna and great nanna) but my son is a little susceptible since he still believes magic, Santa and the Tooth Fairy and thinks that ‘God’ is a logical extension of that… as an aside I think that we all do our children a disservice with the Santa thing as it provides them with tangible evidence of an intangible being and makes them more susceptible to believing in the old man with the beard in the sky…
I have never really entertained the idea of joining a atheism group as I have mostly lived in small towns which, for some reason, can support 6-8 churches but no humanist groups to speak of.. but I guess since I am so used to not connecting with people in that way that it never really occurs to me to search one out… plus I live in Ontario and there just isn’t a lot of pressure to be outspokenly religious but I think if there was, then I would be more outspokenly athiest
all the same it is nice to be a part of a community of like thinking people, so I guess that is why I keep coming back here!
One last thing… I do find myself to be less and less tolerant of religious excesses as I grow older and it *feels* like there is more fundamentalism out there even though I think that it is more that I am becoming more aware of the fundamentalism that was already there… wow that was a long post, I guess I needed to get all of that out, thanks guys! :o)
24 February 2006, on 4:14 pm
Middle aged, atheist female here. I met several atheists by attending the closest Unitarian Universalist Church for a short while. (I just can’t get past the fact that they call themselves a “church”). What I realized was that they were going there for the same reason, to meet like-minded people, or get as close as possible to liberal thinkers as they could. It’s that whole sense of community that god-seekers go to church for that we don’t get in our less organized atheistic population. Prior to going to the UU I really felt isolated and like I may be the only of my kind in these parts, so it was great to discover I wasn’t alone in my disbeliefs.
24 February 2006, on 5:43 pm
Thanks for the great post, Zanna and others. I guess I misunderestimated (to coin a Dubyaism) the number of atheist women who frequent this site. And maybe that SF Chronicle article was making too many assumptions about the numbers of atheist women in general… It certainly didn’t have a large sampling of data to go on.
I too have thought it would be nice to have a secular humanist group or two to hang out with. I think I am gonna look into this atheist group mentioned in the Chron article, since I live in S.F.
24 February 2006, on 5:46 pm
I have to say, that as a gray haired male atheist, I find myself drowning in a sea of theists. “God is for Suckers” is keeping me from afloat.
24 February 2006, on 5:47 pm
Sorry, It’s keeping me afloat.
24 February 2006, on 5:49 pm
I have to say, that as a gray haired male atheist, I find myself drowning in a sea of theists. “God is for Suckers” is keeping me afloat.
24 February 2006, on 6:49 pm
Delurk : I’m male, 33, raised atheist and stayed that way.
I agree with manxome, atheism is not enough of a common interest to justify actual socialising. Blogging, and lurking in blogs, is a much more suitable activity.
I imagine atheist gatherings to be somewhat like Gary Larsen’s “Didn’t Like Dances With Wolves Society” cartoon.
24 February 2006, on 7:02 pm
I went to a Humanity meeting in Palo Alto, and I was happy to see such a large group (about 50 people), but dismayed that they were mostly retiree-age. They seemed to be lovely people who made me feel welcome, but maybe it would be more fun if there were more people closer to my age there.
24 February 2006, on 7:02 pm
Erm, that should be Humanist.
24 February 2006, on 7:58 pm
What is about atheists that they skew to an older demographic?
Here is the SF Chapter of American Atheists. Not exactly spring chickens, either! (like I should talk at 39)
http://www.sfatheists.com/
24 February 2006, on 8:12 pm
I wasn’t raised an atheist, but Episcopalian (which some branches of Xtianity will tell you might as well be the same thing). I was definitely raised to be rational, however. And strangely I studied theology (and existentialism) with the intention of entering the seminary for graduate school, but then left college to open a bookstore, met a bunch of pagans, and sort of floated through the various forms of belief systems, moving farther away from mainstream yet never really feeling at home elsewhere.
It wasn’t that I woke up one morning and said, wow, there’s a god, and the next morning it was, there’s a goddess, and then it was, there’s nothing, nor did I ever just decide there’s no god. In fact, I’m not sure whether I’d be an atheist or “a weak deist” for my conviction that frankly, I could care less whether or not there’s a god; even if there is, he’s still not the creator of me, and he isn’t the ruler of me, and if I go to hell for that, fine. I’ll live and die by my own convictions, and I don’t need someone else saving me nor setting the rules for me nor telling me when I’ve been a good girl. No, I’ll decide for *myself* if I’m a good person, and live by my *own* rules.
I suppose I would be a weak deist with a frickin’ massive chip on my shoulder, then.
I do know a few other female atheists ranging from early 20s to early 40s, but for the most part, we rarely speak of how or why we became godless heathens (as one friend puts it). Perhaps it’s because it’s a private decision–and yes, it’s a decision when all of us were raised, and believed (to some degree or another) in a form of godhood–and one that runs counter to the cultural and social expectations for women (as purveyors of religion and the one in charge of getting kids to sunday school on time and all that crap).
I can’t speak for them, but I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that our position is that it’s really none of anyone else’s business–but that, too, may be related to/a result of the position xtianity took in our lives previously: as a good xtian woman, one does A, B, C, D, crap, the rules for women in xtianity are just laid right on down. When you walk away from that kind of BS, the last thing you want is to subject yourself to more observation and interrogation; the entire *point* of walking away is to set those lines and those rules *yourself*. See paragraph above.
24 February 2006, on 8:17 pm
I talked to one of the guys at my humanist group here in central Ohio about the fact that most of the members were older (and male, although our president is female and great). His thoughts were that it had something to do with the fact that a lot of young people have kids, jobs, not having much time to attend meetings that are held in the middle of a Saturday… Our local UU church offers child care during the services, and he thought that it was a real draw for the younger crowd (I’ve never been to the UU here, and I really have no interest in it).
I think that a lot of the members that I’ve met at the meetings are happy to have the perspective of a young mother. It’s a whole different point of view for a lot of them.
24 February 2006, on 8:56 pm
From MTPete
“You wrote, “Thanks for the sweeping generalizations, MT Pete, as if we haven’t heard them a million times already.”
“I don’t know what “sweeping generalizations” I made that would upset you. I did not say (nor do I believe) that ANY of the societal stereotypes about females are accurate.”
Big sigh! Why does my saying “sweeping generalizations” lead you to the assumption that I was upset? I wasn’t upset. I didn’t say that you believed them. I merely stated that you offered them. To my mind, unnecessarily.
From manxome: “In my life, atheism not a “for” or “against” it’s a “lack of interest in.” It is not any different than my lack of interest in skydiving, scrapbooking, NASCAR, body art, or beets.”
My attitude exactly. My only interest in religion is when it intrudes where it doesn’t belong.
24 February 2006, on 9:01 pm
Somehow I truncated half my post. Good thing I checked. I’d intended to add (let’s see if I can reconstruct it now):
I think that also, the lack of activism amongst women atheists may also be related to the fact that we are socialized to be the peacekeepers, even if tempramentally we’re ill-suited to it. We’re raised with the constant admonition of “be nice” and “share” and “don’t argue” and all that jazz; this does tend to dampen any tendencies to be really confrontational about things. There’s also the cultural aspect. I’m Southern-raised, so this “be nice” was a huge part of things–compared to the “be nice” rules my female Yankee friends were taught. Their idea of “be nice” is “I won’t punch you while I scream this at you, that’s nice as far as I’m concerned and you gotta problem with that?” (heh.)
So essentially, there’s a lot of factors in whether someone will lean towards activism, or will prefer to be as private about their non-belief as they may have been, previously, about their belief. And there’s also the experience of being subjected to enough oversight in our lives. When you’ve had enough of people bellowing about How To Be A Good Xtian Woman, and you know how much you hated that, it’s harder to go about bellowing about how other people are idiots for trying to be happy with a Big Daddy who beats them for their own good. Put it all together, and you have a slice of the population who, unsurprisingly, may lean towards being the silent, nonbelieving majority in their private lives, with no interest in being public about it.
24 February 2006, on 9:38 pm
Catana said:
Big sigh! Why does my saying “sweeping generalizations” lead you to the assumption that I was upset? I wasn’t upset. I didn’t say that you believed them. I merely stated that you offered them. To my mind, unnecessarily.
Actually, in MTPete’s defense, I think what he was saying was absoultely relevant to the discussion. It was, in fact, a direct attempt to answer the question posed by my original post: “Are women less likely to be atheists, and if so why?” MTPete was searching for societal pressures that might lead to this.
The things he mentioned are not immediately obvious to all people — especially younger people who are still trying to learn about the world, or suffering from intense indoctrination. I think these discussions are very necessary, especially since hundreds of people who may never have thought about what MT was pointing out, now might come across it and go “Hmmmm.”
What may be obvious and unecessary to bring up in your mind, may not obvious to many others. Knowing several educators, I hear stories about young, indocritinated minds all the time that blow me away.
As we all know, women are often still abused, infantilized and objectified in Western cultures in a variety of ways, and horribly oppressed in some cultures elsewhere in the world. I see no harm in pointing it out. Only good can come of telling it like it is.
24 February 2006, on 9:58 pm
Sean, I stand corrected. The problem with increasing age is that you’ve heard it all so many times.
24 February 2006, on 10:10 pm
Catana: I know what you mean. Just when I get lazy in my assumptions that everyone should know this stuff, my sister tells me about something like asking a class full of freshmen how many of them consider themselves feminists — and having hardly any of the girls raise their hands. When pressed as to why, they say “Feminists are, like, man haters.” They never had to fight for basic civil rights, they don’t know much (if any) history, so they just don’t even grok the meaning of the word.
25 February 2006, on 12:55 am
Sean,
That’s crazy- I asked something similar of the women in my class and half of them raised their hands and said they were feminists because they bought and appreciated porn and could change their own car tires.
I love freshmen.
25 February 2006, on 1:57 am
This is my first time commenting on this blog, though I read it almost daily. This is a great blog and I love how people here say it like it is!
I am a 51 years old. I am married with 3 grown children. All of us are atheist. I have lost several friends since “coming out” in the early 90s and making my non-beliefs known. For a long time I watched what I said to people and was careful not to “offend” them, and tippy-toeing around, but now I don’t care. The christians in my family do not worry if they offend me by a “group prayer” or sending me religious email forwards, etc. Now I am very open about my non-beliefs. If people don’t like me because of it, too damn bad. Lucky my parents are “lukewarm Lutherans” and don’t really care what we believe. I am also lucky my husband and I think the same on most everything. It has to be hard for people who are dating. My sons and daughter who are in their 20s are quite up front about their atheism so people know where they stand right in the beginning. My middle son has found an agnostic girlfriend, however my older son and my daughter have had a more difficult time finding compatible relationships. But we have taught them first and foremost they must be true to themselves.
25 February 2006, on 2:24 am
That’s great, Stardust. Thanks for that. Wow, I am impressed by how many women seem to be regulars on this site that we have not heard from before. I’m really glad I started this thread.
Please, those who have posted for the first time in this discussion, we would love to hear more from you. GifS is at its best when we are not having to deal with prosletyzing nutjobs and are instead sharing information and supporting fellow atheists, agnostics, humanists, etc.
Of course, it wouldn’t be much fun if we didn’t also get to blaspheme to a ridiculous level and shout at deist buttmunches, too.
And good for your sons and daughter, Stardust. I am the same way. It usually takes me about 30 minutes to let a potential romantic interest know I am an atheist. If it’s a deal breaker, I need to know that sooner than later.
25 February 2006, on 2:55 am
Another thought: I found it particularly odd that when I went to Sweden for my father’s wedding to a pentacostal Lutheran (now that was a strange combination to imagine), one of the things I was particularly sensitive to was the fact that I was visiting a country in which one’s citizenship automatically made one a member of the Swedish Lutheran Church–and then I found out my new step-mother’s family consider my step-mother a bit of an oddball for her strong religious beliefs. Turns out the rest of the family is atheist! Now *that* was something I’d not been expecting; apparently there are a good number of atheists in the Swedish population, yet these are a people who are, by definition, ‘members’ of the Swedish Lutheran Church. It was quite strange.
I’m used to the joke that hippy/liberal parents can expect their children to rebel by becoming accountants and republicans, but I’d never expected to see children rebel against atheist parents by becoming…born-again xtians. Yet that’s exactly what my step-mother and her sister did; they converted to a pentacostal form of the state religion, while the rest of the family looked on askance. (However, I must add that even the ‘pentacostal’ version, in Sweden, appears to be far more low-key than the American version, and that getting all evangelical and witness-ey is still anathema to the general Swedish predeliction for privacy.)
But on the whole, it was still bizarre, to meet (and ask) so many people, “how do you feel about having a state religion,” and to consistently hear, “what do I care? my membership is listed on my citizenship papers but that’s just some gov’t circle to check; I’m an atheist.” It was almost a one-eighty from the US, where we don’t have any official state religion, yet so many people will protest mightily that they’re good xtians.
25 February 2006, on 3:11 am
Marcus said:
That’s crazy- I asked something similar of the women in my class and half of them raised their hands and said they were feminists because they bought and appreciated porn and could change their own car tires.
Well, it’s encouraging that half of them raised their hands. I don’t think my sister managed that well with her kids. But ALL of them should be raising their hands — the boys, too.
I love freshmen.
Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Even the word “freshmen” is sexist!
Man… I have to stop quoting Monty Python on GifS.
Peace.
(PS: People pay for porn? How quaint.)
25 February 2006, on 3:16 am
Wow, ksgreer, that’s whacky. I did not know much of that. Thanks for the enlightening post. I still think I’d take a Swedish pentacostal over an American evangelical anyday!
25 February 2006, on 7:40 am
Not wanting to pick a fight (or derail this topic completely), but I am forced to wonder if my original post would have received the same response if I were to have used the name “MT Paula” or something.
At any rate, I’m glad we can all agree that it is sometimes important to state what is obvious to many of us. After all, we’re pretty well agreed that God is for suckers, yet this blog still goes on.
25 February 2006, on 9:59 am
MT Pete and Catana:
Thank you to both for graciously stating your points. Proof that we civilized, rational folks can have a real conversation without letting it devolve into shoutfests and platitudes.
At least, sometimes!
25 February 2006, on 10:05 am
Sean said:
Well, it’s encouraging that half of them raised their hands. I don’t think my sister managed that well with her kids. But ALL of them should be raising their hands — the boys, too.
I have to disagree. I don’t consider myself a feminist at all (LOL, I have also purchased porn and change change a tire AND my oil) :-). I don’t have a problem with feminists, and I think that they do a lot of good for society, but I don’t see myself as one. I consider myself a people-ist (or would that be humanist…).
25 February 2006, on 10:44 am
Cassandra said:
I have to disagree. I don’t consider myself a feminist at all.
That statement really saddens me. I know some people think that men can’t debate with women on issues like feminism, much like some people think that white/black people can’t debate with black/white people about issues of race. To me, it is irrelevant. All that matters are the points raised. That said, I find it sad that you as a woman would say: I don’t consider myself a feminist at all.
This was the very point I was trying to address when I mentioned my sister’s students.
See, this to me is where misconceptions on definitions come into play. No offense, Cassandra — I always love your writing and viewpoints — but it reminds me of the ongoing debate over the word “liberal.” Liberal, by the dictionary definition, means this:
lib·er·al (lĭb’ər-əl, lĭb’rəl) pronunciation
adj.
1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Who can argue with that but a bigot?
Similarly, all feminism asks for is equal rights for men and women, not special rights for anyone:
fem·i·nism (fĕm’ə-nĭz’əm) pronunciation
n.
1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
Again, who can argue with that?
25 February 2006, on 11:07 am
This was a great topic Sean…
Now that I have “broken the ice” with my first comment, I will probably comment more often.
a real conversation without letting it devolve into shoutfests and platitudes.
I find that I am often manipulated by xians into “shoutfests” even when I tell myself I won’t let it get out of control. What happens is when I try to have a reasonable discussion with xians I always get sucked into this circular debate when they use their programmed responses OVER AND OVER AND OVER again and it’s exactly like talking to a f-ing robot! Their answers are predictable WORD FOR WORD. They “pretend” to address the topic of a discussion then interject their “message” into EVERY conversation like they are being “sly” like we won’t KNOW what they are trying to do. So, on my blog…maybe this is close-minded for a free-thinker…I refuse to talk to them anymore if they are going to start the preaching crap on my blog and will delete them if they are overboard on the evangelism. I then put a comment in place of their’s that my blog is an ATHEIST blog and I will discuss things with everyone who wants to participate, but I will NOT be evangelized to. I have heard the bullshit too many years to keep putting up with it. If xians are going to go snooping around an atheist blog, they are going to hear the atheist message LOUD AND CLEAR. I have found that debating xians is only giving them hope that they can “win me for Jeebus” and that isn’t going to happen. I have only had to delete one xian so far who was MADDENING and taking up all my comment space with big ass too-long and hot-air comments.
Cassandra - good for you! I don’t know if I would call myself a feminist either, however I can say that I speak up when I feel strongly about something (as you have found out on your blog…LOL!) It’s good for women to be able to be independent. I too can change a tire and worked side-by-side with my hubby to build our house. My daughter is not afraid to change a tire and though she is a classical musician ( she is a tall, blonde trumpeter trying to make it in a male-dominated field), she also studied Calculus like her brothers.
(And for the homeschooling parent above…we did homeschooled/independent study with our three kids for junior high and high school…they are very independent thinkers. Wish we would have homeschooled from day one.)
25 February 2006, on 11:27 am
Sean and Cassandra
For myself, I never really thought to give myself that label of “feminist” before now and don’t really know if that is necessary. I think some people think that being a feminist is being like Gloria Steinem but there are varying degrees of feminism.
I am for equal rights for women, I believe women should have control over their own bodies, I believe a women should have equal representation and equal say in government and all areas…equal opportunity. But, for me, it comes out in how I vote on issues and I write an editorial now and then, etc. I am not pounding the pavement for women’s issues.
25 February 2006, on 12:15 pm
Sean, first of all, I take no offense at all. I try to approach each and every situation with an intent to learn.
As far as the definition of feminism - good point. I would have to say that I fall into the category of “feminist” after reading that.
Like Debbie (stardust), I will certainly speak up for things that I believe in. Of course I believe that men and women should be completely equal. We both have equally important roles in life. I believe that we are equal intellectually. As far as physically, well I honestly believe that men have us there. Now, I’m not saying that all men are strong, or that all women are weak. I’m just saying that generally, men are stronger (by that I mean muscle mass). As far as being a nurturer, I think that women are stronger. Again, I’m not saying that men aren’t capable of nurturing, I’m just saying that generally, women are stronger in that role. There are big differences between men and women. So while I totally think that they should be equal in society; physically and emotionally, we are very different.
You know, maybe it’s just been my experiences in life. I’ve never actually experienced discrimination because of my sex (not that it hasn’t happened, I just didn’t notice it). So it’s not something that I’ve ever felt strongly about. I’m very thankful for the women who do “pound the pavement” though, because without them, women would still be where they were 200 years ago.
Ack - I hope no one hates me now. LOL!! But like I said, I’m always open to learning, and changing my opinion if I learn something that I can agree with.
25 February 2006, on 12:39 pm
LOL! MTPete said: “Not wanting to pick a fight (or derail this topic completely), but I am forced to wonder if my original post would have received the same response if I were to have used the name “MT Paula” or something.”
Well, shortly after I wrote my last post I wondered if you would have assumed I was upset if I had signed on with a man’s name. Unfortunately, topics tend to get sidetracked by the (sometimes implicit) gender politics of the speakers. I don’t consider myself a feminist in the sense of taking a political stance. Too much of gender politics is based on expediency or a personal sense of outrage. But I certainly wouldn’t stand down in the face of male authoritarianism or the ongoing attemps to put women back in “their place.”
I’m a very quiet person, and prefer to walk away from volatile situations rather than get into a fight about something I consider comparatively unimportant. That has sometimes given others the impression (to their eventual sorrow) that I’ll stand still for just about anything.
26 February 2006, on 1:18 am
I was brought up thinking that feminists are all lesbians that want.. well, I wasn’t sure what they wanted, but they wanted men to… be less important than women, or something. It was very Rush Limbaugh - a lot more talking about how awful feminists are, while not much talking about WHY they are awful.
So, even though I thought feminists were bad, it never stopped me from thinking it was unfair that guys at my school could get out of a problem if they happened to be on the football team, but there was no similar get-out-of-jail-free for the women’s basketball team. And, why could men and boys wear jeans to our church, but most women wore dresses every week?
I was lucky that my parents never tried to limit what I could do, or criticize things I was interested in. But, not too long ago, my husband and I both interviewed for a job at the same company, jobs which we both wanted badly (we weren’t going for the same job, though). He got it, I didn’t. And my mother said that if only one of us could get it, it was better to be him since a man’s ego could be hurt by that sort of thing. I hated that she said that, because it’s offensive to assume that all men have to be treated with kid gloves, but also that women can handle disappointment better. And she knows us, and knows that neither of us fit gender stereotypes very well.
I hate the way some conservative women like my mother can continue to think that men = logical, and women = emotional. She should certainly know better. Some women like her sister definitely are very emotional and let it get them in trouble, but she’s constantly exasperated with her sister and wishes she would be smarter about things. And my dad, well, let’s just say he could benefit from reading the Skeptics Circle from time to time.
26 February 2006, on 7:53 am
mathyoo:
You’re right. We women tend to forget to point out the men who appreciate having an equal as a partner. Thanks for being a real man; one who can stand on his own without putting women down
Sportin’ Life:
thanks for the welcome
stardust1954:
You said “I am not pounding the pavement for women’s issues.”
I think that this is what women should do. I also think that women should stand up when they see men treated worse than women (ever seen how a male midwife is treated?). I expect the same from men. Perhaps we can coin a new term and use “equalism”?
—
For the record, my mother’s family was quite Catholic, my father’s didn’t care. I’ve been outspoken anti-theist since I was 8, because my parents had just explained the laws of thermodynamics in terms a child can understand and the local priest couldn’t tell me how causa-sine-causa would rhyme with conservation of energy. I tried a letter to the bishop next, but the only answer I received was that belief is an energy of itself. I declared all theists cowards unwilling to face the facts. It was years later that I became cynical enough to understand that the bishop was right in a psychological context.
I guess much of my mother’s family wrote my anti-theism off as juvenile rioting. They, in a sense, were right, too, because then I just “felt” that gods were wrong, that they did more harm than good and that they were a means to turn perfectly capable humans into slaves. Today I could hold my own, but today I’ve got a sound philosophical training under my belt
My husband is an atheist, too. He’s got more patience for the condition humaine than I, so he constantly reminds me that for some people beliefs are the only thing that keeps them going. He is right, of course, but in that same sentence he explained religiously motivated terrorism. Nota bene: religion and politics are interchangeable in fundamentalist mindsets. Case in point: systems of belief with jealous and autocratic creator-gods.
26 February 2006, on 12:53 pm
Goddamn, Annegrete, didn’t you say you are from Germany? Please don’t tell me English is a second language to you. If so, I would have to say I am stunned. And even if it is a first language, you can fucking write, woman. Seriously. I hope you do it as part of your profession. If not, please get right on it!
On a side note: after we get over 10s of thousands of years of women’s inequality, maybe then we can come up with new terms. In the meantime, I have no problem whatsoever with feminism as a word or an idea.
26 February 2006, on 3:38 pm
I’m a guy and I don’t understand why there aren’t a LOT more female atheists. Religion is definitely no friend to women as most simply do not treat women as equals to men. Certainly christianity doesn’t - why are there no female priests ? The previous pope even said “women have their place in the church hierarchy” which was an incredibly sexist thing to say. You know that the current pope ratzo feels the same way if not more so. Insane islam treats women like they’re dirt, they have less status than a pet which is absolutely disgusting. I can’t think of any major religion which treats women as equals to men and that’s yet another reason why religion sucks.
26 February 2006, on 6:29 pm
I’ve always been experimental. I’ve always had to try somethin to know if I liked it. It applies to all areas of my life, and religion was no exception. I tried Wicca, Paganism, Agnosticism, and yes, even Christianity. I never found the right fit. Particularly with Christianity, of which I had several bad experiences, and retain a healthy grudge toward to this day.
I don’t think I have met a fellow female atheist, to be honest. At the very least, they’re new age and “spiritual” without being religious.
Meeting people and making new friends is hard. People simply take things for granted. I’m considered rude if I don’t bow my head and pray with them, however if I asked them not to pray while a guest in my home, that would be inexcusable. The double standard is enough to choke you. You have to choose between being outcasted or taking a stand.
On a related note, did anyone catch the season of America’s Next Top Model with the girl who proclaimed herself “a militant atheist?” At first, I was cheering her on. Yes, finally, here is a young, beautiful woman who can be a figurehead for atheism! It was short-lived. Sure enough, when one of the other girls handed her a Bible and asked her to read it, she did. When asked to pray in a group, she did. So much for her militant status.
27 February 2006, on 1:12 am
Julie said:
however if I asked them not to pray while a guest in my home, that would be inexcusable. The double standard is enough to choke you
A-fucking-men.
Yes, finally, here is a young, beautiful woman who can be a figurehead for atheism! It was short-lived. Sure enough, when one of the other girls handed her a Bible and asked her to read it, she did. When asked to pray in a group, she did.
That’s sick and fucked up. Thank gawd I don’t watch television!
27 February 2006, on 6:01 am
In the late 1960’s buttons with sayings were very popular. For quite awhile, buttons that said, “God is alive and well and living in (fill in the blank),” were ubiquitous. Being an atheist - an out atheist, at that - I got fed up with those buttons and decided to get a button that would proclaim what I believe. When I was unable to find exactly what I wanted, I bought a kit and made my own. My button said, simply, “God Isn’t.” I wore it everywhere, every day, until the lettering was no longer legible.
I was amazed at how many people would come up to me and tell me that I had “no right” to wear my button. Many of those people wore a cross, a crucifix (a cross with a dead guy), or a star of David. They felt it was perfectly okay for them to proclaim their beliefs, but that I should keep mine to myself.
Well, I’m in my fifties now, and some of my hair is turning white, but I don’t see how that makes me any less valuable. I have been insulted, and even lost jobs, because I’ve always been open about my beliefs. Not that I told everyone I’d met, “Hi. I’m an atheist.” But, if someone pushed me to agree with them about something to do with theism, I’d politely tell them that I don’t believe in that. Pretty horrible, huh?
However, the older I get, and the more I see the harm that has been done, and is being done, by theists, the more outspoken, and more short-tempered I have become. I sometimes wonder what scientific discoveries might have already been made, if not for religious persecution, and worse. I wonder what excuses humans would come up with to slaughter each other, and other species, without religion. How could anyone justify slavery, except that it’s in their “bible?”
I’m becoming a “crotchety old lady” because I’ve lived too many years trying to be nice to people who treat me like garbage because I don’t share their delusions. And, now, I read - on an atheist blog, no less - that too many atheists that show up for events are old people! It looks like I’ll never get a break. First, I’m not a theist, and now, I’m too old!
Whew! That felt good!
27 February 2006, on 9:55 am
YY4Me: Thanks for sharing (damn, this is starting to sound like Atheists Anonymous). I don’t think anyone is saying you are too old. I have some gray hais myself — and you sound like somebody I would love to hang out with and shoot the shit. We need our wise folks, and those people tend to be older than us, whether we like it or not. I happen to like it. But I also know that any movement benefits from having a balanced age range. The young are there with their vibrant energy and new ideas, the elders are there with their history and guidance — and often greater compassion and communication skills. Both sides play off of each other’s strengths to make a more powerful unfied whole.
27 February 2006, on 10:18 am
Oops, I’m blushing now. Thank you very much, Sean
Of course I’ll oblige you - I won’t tell that English is actually my fourth language ;-p At least I do write for a living: computer programs. By training I’m a mathematician, though.
—
Enemy of Religion: I think that men and women have the same reasons not to turn against oppressive systems of belief.
Have you ever seen families with an overbearing parent, who rarely praises but communicates displeasure very clearly? Children in those families tend to be insecure, always trying to impress that parent. They grow up to be insecure adults over whom the parent lurks for their whole life - even if they manage to realise the problem.
Children who are regularily beaten have two strategies to cope with the abuse. One is trying to avoid drawing attention, the other is considering the abuse an expression of love. It’s always the child that feels it’s misbehaving, that it somehow deserves the abuse.
Gods, by their very nature, make themselves known only in displeasure: rain that is missing, little prey for the hunters, thunder and lightning that scares people. Gods that reward are a comparatively new invention, but even then reward is defined as the “normal” state: no crop failures, no illness etc. Even newer are gods that offer immaterial rewards, which means no less than a carrot that always dangles out of reach and a whip that is quite within.
27 February 2006, on 10:32 am
Personally, I think that the fact that there are few(er) atheist women stems from societal conditioning as well, aided and enforced by religion, but not always because of religion itself. Women are supposed to be the nurturers, the soft and flowery bosom to cry on, the “fairer” sex. They are supposed to be the ones who tend the children. Given that, ensuring that the soul of every family member is “saved” and that they will go to heaven is the obvious next step.
Because of that, imo, the fact that religion is outrageously mysogynistic and infantile becomes either irrelevant or deliberately overlooked. After all, getting that final big payoff is all that matters. What kind of mother would a woman be if they didn’t try to ’save’ their children’s souls?
The pressure of being supermom, I think, reenforces the religious delusions. Couple this with poverty, marginal education and a religious upbringing for the mother herself and you’ve got a walking talking meme-spreader.
27 February 2006, on 10:53 am
Julie,
“however if I asked them not to pray while a guest in my home, that would be inexcusable. The double standard is enough to choke you”
If someone can’t respect your rules in your home then you should kick them out on their ass
Annegrete,
“I think that men and women have the same reasons not to turn against oppressive systems of belief.”
Absolutely but it seems that women have additional reason to turn against this crap though any intelligent man would also be against this crap for its blatant sexism so I guess that’s basically the same reason from a different perspective.
Lya,
Of course the true question is what kind of mother would a woman be if they didn’t try to save their children from religion. (One answer is they could be like the stupid cluckin’ chicken)
27 February 2006, on 11:07 am
EoR - natch. I was just trying to illustrate the mindset. Personally, I think to raise children with religion is child abuse. All that illogical hocus-pocus, not to mention the “you were born shit” dogma. If I ever have kids they will not be deluded in this way.
That people like that breed is frightening. It’s bad enough that they are allowed to drive and vote.
27 February 2006, on 11:14 am
EoR,
I think the Cluckin’ Chicken will be rudely awakened when her child reaches eighteen. I don’t think the indoctrination machine works quite as well in a state that liberal- but of course, others here would probably know California better.
27 February 2006, on 2:34 pm
Thanks for sharing (damn, this is starting to sound like Atheists Anonymous).
This is one really awesome thread, Sean. It’s so cool to see so many newbies around here. Welcome, everyone!
27 February 2006, on 4:21 pm
This is my first time posting here. Stardust is right. It’s very hard to be dating when you’re an atheist. I can’t tell you how many times I met someone really great, we’d hit it off, and then the whole thing would fall apart once they found out I was an atheist. It’s not that I hide that I’m an atheist. I just don’t go around with a big sign on my head. I’ve learned to be true to myself and if someone can’t accept that, I’m better off without them. But it’s truly disappointing to find that there aren’t more women atheists out there. That makes it awfully hard to find a partner who you feel understands you. Someone earlier said that it doesn’t make sense to organize based on a nonbelief. After all, no one would start a club for people who don’t like country music. But in this case, I think it makes perfect sense because we’re all struggling to find like-minded people. I do find it surprising that more women aren’t nonreligious. You’d think they would reject religion given how it treats women. I would love to hear people’s ideas on where to meet local atheists, ones in their 20s or 30s.
27 February 2006, on 5:04 pm
YY4Me: You’re not too old. Atheists never are
And besides, do you have any idea how much fun you can have with a crotchet hook? Or knitting needles?
Here in Germany, you’ll find little chapels on crossroads, part of a magic charm to protect travellers. I appreciate the art, some of them are hundreds of years old. But I really don’t like naked men on crosses, they’re so … pornographic. So I once knit a sweater and a hat for one of them; after all, it was freezing and we had snow. Some people laughed openly, some didn’t, but nobody dared to use the word “defacement”, because he invariably was laughed at.
Hm. That gives me an idea. How widespread are men on crosses in the prudish USA? Wouldn’t it be fun to file a complaint against Xians for displaying kinky pictures where children can see them?
Lya:
You say: “The pressure of being supermom, I think, reenforces the religious delusions.”
I think that men feel the same pressure and that it is only marital job-sharing which places the proliferation of these delusions on mothers.
Enemy of Religion:
You say: “any intelligent man would also be against this crap for its blatant sexism”
I don’t think that intelligence plays a large role here. Religion decrees that women are inferior and questioning that means punishment by the god(s).
If the expected gain from “turn[ing] against this crap” is less than the expected punishment, it is only sensible - even intelligent - not to risk punishment.
As an aside:
Here’s a quick statistic of individual posters at about 1900h GMT:
Male: 11
Female: 17
So what are you complaining about, Sean?
27 February 2006, on 5:55 pm
Annagrete said:
Here’s a quick statistic of individual posters at about 1900h GMT:
Male: 11
Female: 17
So what are you complaining about, Sean?
Well, until this thread seemed to get them to speak up, some of these women — all of whom seem to have been to this site more than once — haven’t posted before. I am delighted that we have a much more mixed crowd here than I previously thought!
27 February 2006, on 6:36 pm
I am female atheist. I have a few very christian female friends and some atheist ones, but I get along with them all pretty much equally well. The christian friends have basically learned that after knowing them for nearly ten years, they are not going to change my mind, so it really isn’t much of an issue any more.
I think that it might be easier for me being in australia, rather than in america.In my experience, the rates of theism here are lower, and most people who do go to church are just going out of tradition rather than actual belief- if I talk to someone about my way of thinking, 9 times out of ten they will agree with me. Also, I was always encouraged by my father and grandfather ( both atheists) to think for myself and come to my own conclusions about the world and my place in it.
27 February 2006, on 8:04 pm
In the late 1960’s buttons with sayings were very popular… My button said, simply, “God Isn’t.” I wore it everywhere, every day, until the lettering was no longer legible.
One day, I was out browsing a large flea market, and came across a button bin. I’m a bit of a button freak, so I went digging. Many of them were old, rusted in places and promoting politicians from 30-40 years ago. But a few caught my eye, and I became the proud owner of three new buttons, all made circa 1960 or so:
“Anyone who says God is on his side is dangerous as Hell.”
“Until churches are taxed, they should stay out of politics.”
“Go fascinate someone else.”
Alas, I have lost all of these to time and a large college campus. I nearly cried when I lost the churches/politics one. It was very close to my heart.
27 February 2006, on 9:11 pm
Okay, now I’m feeling warm and fuzzy.
—
Sean, Atheists Anonymous isn’t what’s going on here. What is going on is Theists Anonymous - recovering from our theistic upbringings. “Hello. My name is (fill in the blank), and I’m a recovering theist.” Or, we could call ourselves born again atheists since no one is born believing in a deity or deities.
I agree that it’s important to have people of all ages come together to work towards a common goal. I was just getting the impression that those of us who have some white in our hair are not as valued. My mistake. I’m not sure that I like being referred to as an “elder,” though.
—
Annegrete, I love your story about the sweater and hat. What a great sense of humor you have. I’m impressed by how you used humor to make a point.
As for the guy on the stick, I’m pretty sure that here, in the U.S., there’s a strategically placed piece of cloth. In fact, I think that most American christians probably think that Jesus (if the man even existed) didn’t have genitals. Too suggestive, know what I mean?
But, I still think that a dead guy on a stick is too “kinky” for children. What’s the message they take from such a thing?
Every time