Xian Parenting Tip #237: Spank Kids with 2 ft. long PVC pipe
24 March 2006 by Lya Kahlo
Dead child’s mom sought discipline tips
Lynn Paddock ordered books by a minister and his wife that recommended using pipe to spank kids
A few years ago, Lynn Paddock sought Christian advice on how to discipline her growing brood of adopted children.
Paddock — a Johnston County mother accused of murdering Sean, her 4-year-old adopted son, and beating two other adopted children — surfed the Internet, said her attorney, Michael Reece. She found literature by an evangelical minister and his wife who recommended using plumbing supply lines to spank misbehaving children.
Paddock ordered Michael and Debi Pearl’s books and started spanking her adopted children as suggested. After Sean, the youngest of Paddock’s six adopted children, died last month, his older sister and brother told investigators about Paddock’s spankings.
Sean’s 9-year-old brother was beaten so badly he limped, a prosecutor said. Bruises marred Sean’s backside, too, doctors found.
Sean died after being wrapped so tightly in blankets he suffocated. That, too, was a form of punishment, Johnston County Sheriff Steve Bizzell said.
The Pearls’ advice from their Web site: A swift whack with the plastic tubing would sting but not bruise. Give 10 licks at a time, more if the child resists. Be careful about using it in front of others — even at church; nosy neighbors might call social workers. Save hands for nurturing, not disciplining. Heed the warning, taken from Proverbs in the Old Testament, that sparing the rod will spoil the child.
Paddock and other moms in her rural Baptist church chatted about the Pearls’ strategies for rearing obedient children, Reece said.
“I think she was trying to do the right thing by her children,” he said. (Note: clearly BEATING THEM TO DEATH is not trying to do right, ASSHOLE)
Paddock, 45, faces a possible lifetime behind bars or execution if convicted of causing Sean’s death.
Paddock seems to have carefully followed the Pearls’ teachings. Investigators found 2-foot lengths of plumbing supply line in several rooms of her remote farmhouse.
The Pearls offer shopping advice on their Web site, www.nogreaterjoy.org: “You can buy them for under $1.00 at Home Depot or any hardware store. They come cheaper by the dozen and can be widely distributed in every room and vehicle. Just the high profile of their accessibility will keep the kids in line.”
The Pearls’ first book, “To Train Up a Child,” has sold more than 400,000 copies since it was published in 1994, according to Mel Cohen, general manager of the Pearls’ business, No Greater Joy Ministries. After the book came out, so many readers wrote in with questions that the Pearls started a newsletter. Every two months, Cohen said, the Pleasantville, Tenn.-based ministry mails more than 60,000 newsletters to parents around the world.
The Pearls declined to be interviewed. “They feel the material speaks for itself,” Cohen said.
Christian evangelicals who, like the Pearls, teach the importance of corporal punishment have loyal followers. The results are tangible, said Dot Ehlers, executive director of a Smithfield nonprofit who teaches parenting skills to mothers and fathers referred to them by the Johnston County Department of Social Services. She said about a quarter of the 60 parents she instructs each week say their faith defends and encourages corporal punishment.
The Pearls’ techniques helped Sandy Hicks, a mother in Texas who said she was desperate to restore peace in her home.
“Some people would rather spend an hour reasoning with a defiant 5-year-old instead of requiring the kid to behave and giving him a swat if he doesn’t,” said Hicks, who said she has used a peach-tree switch to spank her four children. “Some people are just queasy about swatting their kids.”
The Pearls’ teachings helped mobilize another group of Christian parents to speak out against such corporal punishment. The Web site Stoptherod.net rails against the Pearls’ first book; the Web site’s founders, Susan and Steve Lawrence of Virginia, say the book “reads like a child abuse manual.” The Web site encourages parents to post critical reviews of the book on Amazon.com.
Some of the Pearls’ defenders say you can’t blame them for parents who take their advice to an unhealthy extreme.
Gena Suarez, publisher of a magazine for home-schooling parents that publishes advertisements for the Pearls’ books, said their teachings are often inappropriately used to defend child abuse.
“[The Pearls] are talking about something that would fit in a purse,” Suarez said. “The only way you can kill a child with that is by shoving it down his throat.”
The Pearls acknowledge that discipline turns to abuse when the “child is broken in spirit, cowed and subdued …”
The minister advises one mother on his Web site: “I always give myself one swat before I swat the child to remind myself how much force to exert. It stings the skin without bruising or damaging tissue. It’s a real attention-getter.”
(News researchers Susan Ebbs, Becky Ogburn and Lamara Williams-Hackett contributed to this report.)
Sing it with me now: Jesus Loves Us to Beat the Children
Over the hills and everywhere
Jesus Loves Us to Beat the Children
Since Jesus Christ is born!
or how about: Jesus Loves me this I know
Mommy’s PVC pipe tells me so
You know xians are all hysterical over gay adoptions. But, um, how many stories about gay adoptive parents beating kids to death (or cutting off their arms, or starving them, or forcing them to drink lethal amounts of water or laundry detergent, or caging them) do we hear? Oh right, NONE. Clearly, it’s xians who shouldn’t be allowed to adopt. At least Baptists and Evangelicals anyway.
(Note to theists: I don’t give a damn if you’re offended. Everyday you offend me.)
24 March 2006, on 9:44 am
Suffer the little children…
24 March 2006, on 10:09 am
This is one idea we should be actively promoting. Since xians refuse to stop breeding, they should be encouraged to beat their children to death.
24 March 2006, on 10:55 am
Levendis = Modern day Jonathan Swift
24 March 2006, on 11:30 am
Lya,
I was thinking exactly the same thing- then we could have little xian child leather slippers! Soft as a newborn’s bottom!
24 March 2006, on 11:44 am
Don’t forget the tender meat!
24 March 2006, on 12:03 pm
Levendis,
Like a perfectly marbled rib-eye! Children! It’s what’s for dinner!
24 March 2006, on 12:28 pm
Just remember, it’s not child abuse if God told ya to do it.
24 March 2006, on 1:09 pm
What’s that phone number that Homeland Security gave out? The one you’re supposed to call if you see or know of a terrorist? Please give it to me.
24 March 2006, on 2:22 pm
You can buy them for under $1.00 at Home Depot or any hardware store. They come cheaper by the dozen and can be widely distributed in every room and vehicle.
Good to know where their priorities are at. Can you imagine if they cost 5 or 10 dollars each? Then you would have to make the tough choice as to which room you want to beat your kids in. I guess you could carry the same pipe around with you, but it might clash with your outfit.
24 March 2006, on 2:42 pm
In all seriousness, we all know this happens in all groups of people. Though every week it seems like there’s a new story about abuse by religious parents.
Is it that there’s more of those stories, or just that more of those stories are reported? (by that phantom “liberal media” mwhahahaahaaaaaaa)
24 March 2006, on 6:30 pm
I’d like five minutes alone with that cow and a length of PVC pipe.
24 March 2006, on 7:38 pm
My father grew up as a Baptist in North Carolina. For the smallest “offense” his mother made him to cut a switch off a tree and bring it back to her so she could beat him with it. While she was beating him she would quote bible verses. When i was growing up, my father used a belt on us. He followed in his mother’s footsteps and quoted stuff like “spare the rod and spoil the child” and other passages from the bible on a regular basis. Now that he is an old man he has apologized for such abuse he committed on me and my siblings, but the hurt is still there in our memory. If it doesn’t kill a kid, it damages them psychologically. Religion is harmful in so many ways. It causes people to behave irrationally and justifies inhumane behavior all too often.
24 March 2006, on 7:45 pm
In all seriousness, we all know this happens in all groups of people.
I just want to add that I agree that this happens in all groups of people, but when religion is used to justify the abuse, the victim feels like he deserves it somehow…whereas if it is done out of pure meanness with no religious justification, then the victim just has that build-up of hate and resentment.
I am sure if the media could get ahold of a story about abusive satanist parents, or abusive atheist parents, they would have a field day with it.
24 March 2006, on 7:56 pm
Oh my, Stardust. That’s horribly fucked up. I’m sorry you went through that.
24 March 2006, on 8:11 pm
Pisses me off especially that the kid’s name was Sean. Grrrr.
Was poking around looking for their books. Just had to see the ugliness for myself. This really got me:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/children/pearl_tuac.htm
STEPS TO OBEDIENCE
One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of “No” with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.
Such was her fascination with climbing that four or five sessions had not made her stop. The thought of further spankings was disconcerting, so I conceived an alternative. After one more spanking, I laid the switch on the bottom step. We later observed her crawl to the stairs and start the ascent, only to halt at the first step and stare at the switch. She backed off and never again attempted to climb the stairs, even after the switch was removed.
Without knowing why, she will be having nightmares about that switch lying on those steps well into her elder years, you piece of shit. Did it ever occur to you to simply block her access to the stairs? She was four months old, for fuck’s sake, not a rambunctious toddler. Jeebus H. Cripes on a Pogo Stick, how sick do you have to be to take a switch to a four-month-old?
How is it that my sister and brother-in-law have so far raised the most wonderful little 3-year-old and never had to hit him once? Much less use a fucking switch?
Can you imagine the sadist who goes out into his yard looking at the willow trees, trying to find the right-sized stick to beat a four-month-old little girl with? “Hmm, that’s one’s too thick. Hmm, that one’s not long enough, I’ll have to bend over and hurt my back. Oh! Lookee, that one is just right. Praise Jeeezus.”
And they say we pro-choice secular humanist types are evil.
Fuuuuck.
24 March 2006, on 8:50 pm
What is a switch?
24 March 2006, on 8:59 pm
Peopole who need to be taught how to discipline their children should NOT have children. It is always about punishment to these assholes. Never about education. I wish somedays for a new technology that would allow us to sterilize these people without their noticing.
24 March 2006, on 9:14 pm
roya Says:
March 24th, 2006 at 8:50 pm e
What is a switch?
“A slender flexible rod, stick, or twig, especially one used for whipping.”
It’s usually a branch pulled off a tree to beat someone (usually a child) with.
24 March 2006, on 9:45 pm
Sean, I’m glad you looked those abusers’ books up and not me; I just don’t have the stomach. I almost lost my lunch (and that was hours ago now that I ate) reading your excerpt above.
I almost wrote that that training advice sounds like dog obedience training – except that any dog trainer worth his/her salt knows and cares enough not to hit the animals. Given my admitted soft spot for cats and dogs, I wonder with horror how these abusers treat their animals if this is how they treat their own children.
stardust1954 said, I just want to add that I agree that this happens in all groups of people, but when religion is used to justify the abuse, the victim feels like he deserves it somehow…
You’re right; using self-righteousness to justify your abusive actions *is* worse. The best outcome is for the Pearls’ kids to escape not only their parents’ physical clutches, but their psychological talons as well! Can’t we launch a rescue mission?
24 March 2006, on 10:16 pm
My husband and I raised three kids and never had to hit them. They turned out just fine. It takes more time, attention, and intelligence to educate and gently guide a child rather than losing one’s temper and hitting it to teach him or her things in life.
Why do some people think they need to use a WEAPON against a BABY or a child of any age…or even an adult for that matter?! A 4-month-old is not going to have any sort of reasoning power.
There is overwhelming evidence and examples of children being raised without corporal punishment and turning out to be good people.
Makes one wonder about adoptions..how carefully are these people screened? How do these people like Lynn Paddock get to adopt these kids? It would seem that they would do better checking up on these kids, but apparently they don’t.
24 March 2006, on 10:53 pm
I don’t believe that I’m going to have to take exception with someone on this blog! But, I’m going to have to do it.
There is a vast difference between spanking and beating. There is a vast difference between a couple of swats with a switch and a bruising beating with pvc pipe. I’ll grant that I don’t have kids, but I was a kid. My parents spanked me. I turned out fine. It is the point at which corporal punishment turns into beating that the line needs to be drawn.
I had some friends some years ago. They had two kids. To make a long story short, the daughter (I think she was about 4 at this time), had done something that she had been warned and reasoned with repeatedly not to do. They had punished her in other ways. She continued to do it. So, the father spanked her. Bare hands, no implements used. Neighbors in the building across the parking lot saw shadows in the window and called the MPs (we were all living on a military base at the time). The father was arrested and the child taken to the hospital. The doctor noted that the child was not injured, but charges were pressed anyway. Now the father has to register, everywhere he lives for the rest of his life, as a child abuser. His wife made a living with an in-home daycare. No longer. As long as she is living with that man, she can not care for children in her home.
My point is that the idea of never lay a hand on your child has been take waaaaayyyy too far.
24 March 2006, on 11:28 pm
Okay, Holly, that was an extreme case of misunderstanding and false judgment. I still believe coporal punishment is not necessary, and I have seen great kids come out of households that have decided not to use it, but use other forms of discipline firmly.
I often hear people speak exactly as you. “Well I was spanked and I am fine.” My apologies, but it always sounds like someone who is conflicted over their love for their parents vs. what society taught their parents to do to them.
Remember, we aren’t that far away in time from Dickensian England, where children were often seen as property and little more. In other words, not many generations have grown up under a philosophy of actually sparing the rod, but not spoiling the child. Our instinct toward guilt when criticizing our parents leads to the perpetuation of this myth that beating children, any more than beating animals (thanks, Eve, for pointing that out), works in the long term or in the bigger picture.
Again, my sister has a wonderful three-year-old who has not, nor ever will be, hit. What’s her secret? Firmness. Consistency. Communicating on his level. Unconditional love.
Here’s a little bit from our gentle, non-war-like friends to the north:
http://www.canadiancrc.com/articles/Corporal_punishment_S_McDonald_CBU_25NOV05.htm
24 March 2006, on 11:33 pm
Our three kids are in their 20s now and they have never been arrested, never been in any serious trouble, are all educated and hard working…very family oriented, optimistic, fun-loving and they have NEVER been spanked or hit…and our middle son was quite a challenge during his childhood, to put it mildly. In my own opinion, I do not feel that intelligent adults should have to use physical force to get a child to behave appropriately. Hitting teaches that hitting is ok. Intellectual methods work better in the long run.
24 March 2006, on 11:42 pm
I’m totally with you, Star. I think an adult hitting a child is an excuse to check your vastly superior life-experience at the door and simply try to beat a solution to a problem out of a helpless being who can barely even understand your motives. It takes real effort to find a non-violent solution to any dilemma, be it something as small as a misbehaving child, or something as vast and potentially apocalyptic as a disagreement between nations and cultures.
24 March 2006, on 11:56 pm
You guys give human beings a lot more credit than I do. Humans are, at their core, base beings. Especially children, who, I feel, haven’t develped past very basic emotions. As children, we understand pleasure and pain. That’s pretty much it. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a little swat, or a spanking. Say no. Say it a few times. After a few times, no is accompanied by a swat. See, when I say no and you do it anyway, it hurts, doesn’t it? That’s the way we learn when we are young… things that are pleasant and things that are unpleasant. I refuse to believe that any real harm is being done in these common situations. It gives humans a very early, very basic, understanding of right and wrong. Right doesn’t hurt, wrong does hurt.
And by the way, Sean, I am not at all conflicted about love for my parents vs what they did to me. As an adult, I can honestly say that I deserved every spanking I got. What is more telling is that I remember what those spankings were for… lessons learned.
Somebody mentioned laying the switch on the stairs, and how repulsive that was. Why not block the stairs off? Because you can’t guarantee that stairs will always be blocked off wherever you are, and a child needs to know not to climb on them. Translate that example to pretty much anything else. Rather than making the environment completely child friendly, children need to learn not to do things. Not just not do them because they are prevented from it directly, but because they know not to do them whether directly prevented or not.
I commend everyone who has raised healty, well-behaved children with no spanking or swatting whatsoever. I think you were very lucky. I’ve seen many cases where the child is definately not better off for having not been spanked.
25 March 2006, on 12:20 am
As children, we understand pleasure and pain.
It is my experience as a mother for many, many years that children understand a whole lot more than some people realize. I have other friends who have not spanked their children and they have turned out well and are well adjusted adults…and happy.
Looking at this from a positive viewpoint, children learn to learn not from the negative, but from the positive.
As for a 4 month old and stairs…that baby is learning FEAR. That child will probably end up as Sean says and having nightmares about staircases and switches when it is older. I would just keep moving the child away from the stairs or put it in a playpen if I was not able to watch her. Raising children takes A LOT of perserverance…hitting is only a “shortcut” for those who run out of patience.
25 March 2006, on 12:33 am
My father grew up as a Baptist in North Carolina. For the smallest “offense” his mother made him to cut a switch off a tree and bring it back to her so she could beat him with it. While she was beating him she would quote bible verses. When i was growing up, my father used a belt on us. He followed in his mother’s footsteps and quoted stuff like “spare the rod and spoil the child” and other passages from the bible on a regular basis. Now that he is an old man he has apologized for such abuse he committed on me and my siblings, but the hurt is still there in our memory. If it doesn’t kill a kid, it damages them psychologically.
I think this is an instance of personal strength. I went through what you did, on top of what your father went through. I got the belt, the switch, the flyswatter, and virtually every kitchen implement in the drawer. I don’t consider myself psychologically damaged. I don’t suffer from depression, or self esteem issues. I have healthy, happy relationships with my loved ones. In short, I’m not fucked up.
Do I think this was right? No. Do I think you necessarily have to let it ruin your life, and continually use “MY DADDY BEAT ME” as a crutch? Absolutely not.
Gonna have to agree with Holly. Corporal punishment, when used wisely and in moderation, is effective and just fine. I plan on spanking my kids someday.
And Sean, are you really saying that you think people who were spanked as children are delusional about whether they have a good relationship with their parents or not? Because I could just as easily turn that argument around. “I didn’t spank my kids, and they turned out fine” becomes, “I’m delusional about my own brats’ behavior, and am completely oblivious to the fact that they’re spoiled rotten little monsters.” See how that works? Mass generalizations never make anyone come out on top.
25 March 2006, on 12:39 am
Julie, It hasn’t “ruined my life”…but left me feeling very hurt about it for a long time that my own father could do this kind of thing and I do not have the relationship with him that my kids have with their own father.
I took my experiences and learned from them, and vowed I would not perpetuate the same type of child-raising. It is not necessary to hit a child. I know that from first hand experience from raising kids. I know you say you turned out just fine…but if they can turn out just fine without hitting them also, then I feel non-violence is the better and more loving way.
My sister never hit her kids…who are now grown and well adjusted…and she was a widow at a young age.
My two brothers also have refused to hit their children and same thing…well adjusted and happy adults.
25 March 2006, on 12:45 am
I know you say you turned out just fine…but if they can turn out just fine without hitting them also, then I feel non-violence is the better and more loving way.
And if that works for you, great. Awesome. Really. But what gets my goat is people trying to step in on how others decide to raise their children. You’ve done that quite a few times in this thread. Overall, you’ve displayed a condescending attitude toward anyone who has to resort to physical means to discipline their children, when YOU’VE never had to.
If your kids did well without spankings, then fantastic. But please don’t assume that the same would have worked for every other child on the planet.
25 March 2006, on 12:47 am
By the way, I should add that I am a 51 year old woman…and my kids are 27, 26 and 24….I am also a teacher and have had years of experience with kids from K-12. Teachers are not allowed to hit children and we are quite successful in getting most kids to behave properly. The troubled ones are the ones who come from violent households. Some have ADD and other problems where spanking absolutely will not work.
Children will not turn into spoiled little monsters if parents maintain certain behavior expectations and consistently reprimand inappropriate behaviors. This does not have to be hitting. My kids always hated “the lecture.”
25 March 2006, on 1:05 am
Overall, you’ve displayed a condescending attitude toward anyone who has to resort to physical means to discipline their children, when YOU’VE never had to.
I apologize if I have come across this way, but after having the childhood I have had, I hate to see children hit in any manner. If a child cannot trust his parent not to hurt him, who can he trust?
Like I said, my middle son was a real handful and he took a lot of effort all the time. But we got through it…without hitting…we used other methods and they take more patience and effort, but work far better in the long run. To say you are going to hit your children before you even have children is sad. Wouldn’t it at least be better to say “I am going to try NOT to spank my kids” than just to say “I plan on spanking my kids someday”?
My three grown children say they will never hit their own children if they have any…If they stick with this thinking, it seems that I have managed to stop the cycle of violence in my branch of the family.
25 March 2006, on 1:27 am
To say you are going to hit your children before you even have children is sad. Wouldn’t it at least be better to say “I am going to try NOT to spank my kids” than just to say “I plan on spanking my kids someday”?
No, because I know my own limits, and I know what worked for me. While it’s true that my father was abusive, my mother and my daycare provider spanked me. I love them both, and have/had a wonderful relationship with them that extends into true friendship.
I know that I don’t have the patience to go to great lengths to use substitutes for corporal punishment. I certainly won’t use it as a first resort, but I won’t hesitate to use it after three or more repeats of the same, undesirable behavior. And, as I grew up spending a lot of time in the equivilant of a part-time foster home with 20+ kids, from the time I was 2 weeks old until I was fourteen, I know kids. I know that I can’t hope for being told once or twice to work every time. I’m realistic, so yes, I plan on spanking my kids at some point.
25 March 2006, on 1:39 am
Overall, you’ve displayed a condescending attitude toward anyone who has to resort to physical means to discipline their children, when YOU’VE never had to.
If you’re a THINKING and CREATIVE parent, you WON’T “have to.” Saying you “had to” says more about YOU than your kid than you might think…
I mean, what do you think the intellectual and emotional capacity of (say) a 12-month old (or earlier) actually IS, compared to you?…
You’re a fully functioning intelligent adult human, and you need to actually PHYSICALLY HIT a tiny being about 3-feet tall (with little or no control over how she feels, because her brain is THIS big)?… Are you fucking HIGH?…
Dude, get a grip…
25 March 2006, on 1:50 am
Here is a really good article titled Discipline Without Spanking
Excerpt from the article
Most parents use the same style of discipline that their parents used with them. But we live in a world that is different than our ancestors’ and the expectations we have for our children today are also different from the ones in the past. In past generations physical punishment was often considered the only way to discipline a child.
Spanking is generally used to control a child’s behavior; it does not teach the child how to change what he is doing. Discipline helps the child learn how to control his own behavior. Spanking can also teach the child to be afraid of the parent, while discipline is intended to teach the child to respect the parent. Spanking tells the child that it is acceptable to hit when a person is upset. This belief can lead to other aggressive behaviors. Spanking might be a temporary solution to a problem; but it does not fix the problem. When spanked, the child also learns that if he does something wrong, he will get hurt. This will encourage the child to hide his mistakes from his parents because of fear. Spanking can lead to physical and emotional damage.
25 March 2006, on 1:51 am
I forgot to add that the article emphasizes that discipline and punishment are two different things.
25 March 2006, on 1:58 am
Bob, way to present yourself. I don’t think I spotted a single, valid argument in between the caps-lock abuse and ad hominem. Congrats!
25 March 2006, on 2:04 am
Stardust – Seems to me like that article is doing a lot of, “Spanking does this” or “Discipline does this” with absolutely no evidence to back up either claim. I can make a lot of claims, but without anything behind it, it’s just hot air.
25 March 2006, on 2:29 am
Julie said:
Overall, you’ve displayed a condescending attitude toward anyone who has to resort to physical means to discipline their children, when YOU’VE never had to.
Well, Star says she has already successfully raised three children without beating (word choice mine, but it’s the same damn thing) them and they turned out great. As she points out, you plan on beating your children before you even have them. If Star and others like her can prove that children can be raised and not turn out to be “little monsters” (I would argue that more children who are beaten turn into big monsters than those who were never beaten at all; where does domestic violence come from I wonder? Hmmmm.) without beating them, then why not choose the “non-beating” method first, rather than default to the idea that children should be beaten?
Have I used the word “beaten” enough yet? Tough.
Furthermore, Star said:
My three grown children say they will never hit their own children if they have any…If they stick with this thinking, it seems that I have managed to stop the cycle of violence in my branch of the family.
Bravo for you, Stardust. I applaud you. Breaking the cycle of violence is the absolute key.
Julie said: Bob, way to present yourself. I don’t think I spotted a single, valid argument in between the caps-lock abuse and ad hominem. Congrats!
Bullshit. Ad hominem where? You have been attacking people throughout the last half-dozen postings on this thread:
You’ve done that quite a few times in this thread. Overall, you’ve displayed a condescending attitude toward anyone who has to resort to physical means to discipline their children, when YOU’VE never had to.
[Notice the caps lock, before Bob's caps lock, and the personal, totally unfounded attack on Star, who actually has raised children, where you have not. Ad hominem? Please. When are you going to offer her an apology for being dead wrong about her?]
Bob said:
I mean, what do you think the intellectual and emotional capacity of (say) a 12-month old (or earlier) actually IS, compared to you?…
You’re a fully functioning intelligent adult human, and you need to actually PHYSICALLY HIT a tiny being about 3-feet tall (with little or no control over how she feels, because her brain is THIS big)
How is that ad hominem? Are you denying that a child’s brain and emotional capacity is enormously simple compared to yours? Come one, let us in on this wisdom. How is beating a four-month-old with a fucking switch not sick in the head?
I happen to know Bob personally and his child is incredibly beautiful and well-adjusted. Get back to us when you have finished beating your future kids and we’ll compare them to how Bob’s kid has turned out.
Talk about being condescending. You know nothing about the people you are attacking and you dare say these things to them.
For shame, Julie. I fear for your future children.
Sorry, folks, but this fucking pissed me off. Someone should call child protective services before loving Julie even spawns.
25 March 2006, on 5:44 am
I have to take issue with the notion that society doesn’t have a right to tell people how to raise their kids. I fully endorse your right to spank consenting adults in the privacy of your own home, but kids are different because they aren’t in the position to give informed consent.
There are numerous studies (that controlled for outright physical abuse) that show that kids who were spanked are more likely to engage in agressive or violent behavior. (Check google and pub-med if you’re interested– I don’t have time to hunt down links for you if you aren’t.) This doesn’t say that everyone who has ever been spanked is aggressive and violent, just that it does lead to there being more aggressive and violent people than there otherwise would be. I can think of one or two of reasons why I wouldn’t want people I live near engaging in behavior that is likely to result in more aggressive or violent people in the area.
There are further studies showing that kids who have been spanked are more likely to have chronic physical problems later in life. Does this mean all kids who have been spanked have these problems? No, just a much higher proportion than kids who haven’t been spanked. Good genes help but no one really knows what recessive genes they have floating around their family even if they turned out ok.
Jeez— who’d have thunk that whacking the bottom of a kid whose spine is still developing might doom them to chronic lower back problems later in life. Yes, this goes for swatting too; if it hurts enough to be useful as discipline it hurts for a reason and it can damage developing tissues. When the kid grows up, other people are going to pay for those physical problems, whether through taxes going to a lifetime of disability payments and medicaid, having to cover for employees/co-workers missed work days, having to pay for employees disability acommodations (special chairs, keyboards, workstations, etc.), pay higher health insurance premiums (because the money has to come from somewhere), etc. And the kid will pay too, through missing out on a whole lot of physical activities, through having to pay way more insurance copayments than their healthy peers, through having to pay for things like cleaning services because they have trouble reliably doing things for themselves that other people take for granted, through having to wake up a few hours earlier than they ought to because it takes them that much extra time to get ready in the morning, through giving up recreational time that everyone else takes for granted because it takes them an hour to walk to their car from their front door, through having to order so much pizza that they’re sick of it because some days walking to the kitchen is just too hard and the best they can do is plop in the couch by the front door and grab the phone, through having to spend more free time than they ought to talking to those people the insurance companies hire to try to avoid paying the medical bills you’re paying them to pay for, through having to give up the things they enjoy in life one at a time as they lose the physical ability to do them… do I need to go on? Why would you do this to your kid because you don’t want to put in the time coming up with non-physical methods of discipline? Yeah, the odds are slightly in your favor, but they’re nothing like good—not with the risks involved.
And that’s what gives me the right to say that parents shouldn’t do things to their kids that will mess them up in any way later in life. So you’re not emotionally damaged. That’s great. How’s your back? Any chronic pain problems? Arthritis? Fibromyalgia? There are loads of chronic physical conditions that happen occasionally in the general population but are worse or more common in people who were spanked as kids and people who’ve had severe accidents as adults. Your kids are not your property, and it’s not clear why you should have the right to do something to them that is statistically likely to cause them immeasurable harm (whether emotional or physical) later in life.
25 March 2006, on 5:54 am
I think Julie has a point. I also think others here are engaging in a little bit of anecdotal extrapolation. Just because your kids/siblings/you grew up fine with no corporal punishment at all doesn’t mean that it is the correct strategy in all situations with all children. There will be children who respond well to it and respond poorly in its absence. I have always had a high tolerance for adverse conditions and pain. It often took quite a bit of negative feedback for me to abandon certain “bad”/risky behaviors.
The bottom line is, I think its definitely the case that other approaches should be tried first, but the wholesale dismisal of corp pun seems a bit extreme. The pendelum has swung so far away from corp pun nowadays that I often see kids misbehaving in public that I think could use a smack. Some kids will push the envelope until it hurts. And sure, you could use other forms of punishment, like some pyschological trip, grounding (which I found worse than spanking), all of these are gonna do some kind of emotional damage. Just know your child, know his limits and carefully consider the long term emotional impact of whatever strategy you take.
As a 6yr old who would purposefully hurl himself down rocky hillsides to play “stunt man” I would laugh at a switch. But another child might be really intimidated. That same child might find coping with a grounding easy to deal with, just retreating into a book, while a more rambunctious kid might be more severely distressed by being caged up.
25 March 2006, on 8:59 am
For most of you who think corporal punishment is alright for a child- developmental psychology disagrees with you. Of course most parents who would spank are not patient enough to consistently and intelligently use the PROVEN techniques for child rearing.
It’s hilarious how many think that caring for children is a nascent property to giving birth- the arrogance of ignorant parents in this regard is boundless.
My favorite xian twit is the kind who demands abortion be stopped at all costs, yet will beat the fuck out his kids and claim society has no right to intervene… and gives them “the daddy ride” (oh no daddy!) because they’re bad…
25 March 2006, on 8:59 am
“As for a 4 month old and stairs…that baby is learning FEAR.”
Fear is a basic human response, and should be learned. The child should fear the stairs. She fears the switch, and now, by extension, the stairs. You know what, life is harsh. Maybe we should be preparing our children for that reality.
“But we got through it…without hitting…we used other methods and they take more patience and effort, but work far better in the long run.”
Ok, fine, but you must admit that most people who are parents don’t have that kind of patience. They don’t make you pass a test or get a license to be a parent. There are lots of them that are not qualified for the job. Keeping that in mind, I would much rather their children grow up well behaved and with a good sense of right and wrong, than simply that they not ever be spanked. In a perfect world, only those people who were qualified would be parents. Alas, this is not the case.
“I mean, what do you think the intellectual and emotional capacity of (say) a 12-month old (or earlier) actually IS, compared to you?…”
This is exactly my point. A 12 month old doesn’t understand gray areas or extenuating circumstances. I doesn’t matter how intelligent you are—you cannot reason with a 12 month old because they are not capable of comprehension. They understand what is pleasant, and what is unpleasant. Period.
I think this whole thing is an extension of our safety-paranoia in this country. No one is ever supposed to get hurt… ever. That’s not very realistic.
Furthermore, I take issue with the whole “childhood is a playground” mindset. Childhood is where you learn what is expected of you, and what will be tolerated from you. It is where you learn to be a good adult.
SPANKING IS NOT BEATING. That’s a very simplistic attitude.
I’m just going to have to agree to disagree with everyone on this one. By the way, for any concerned parties who think I am evil and would lock my children in the basement… I will not be having any. Whew! Put down that phone! No need to call DHS!
25 March 2006, on 10:08 am
Keeping that in mind, I would much rather their children grow up well behaved and with a good sense of right and wrong, than simply that theynot ever be spanked.
Don’t you mean-
“grow up with a chip on their shoulder and a knee-jerk reaction to what they believe is wrong in even philosophical arenas (ala Paul Manata) and a willingness to engage in aggressive behavior or physical hostility to prove their point when feeling: a) belittled b) questioned c) proven wrong. Thank god for spanking!”
Developmental psychology still says you’re wrong. Address the experts first.
25 March 2006, on 10:51 am
re:
SPANKING IS NOT BEATING.
Yes it is. Define for me how they are clearly different.
spank
To slap on the buttocks with a flat object or with the open hand, as for punishment.
beat
1.
1. To strike repeatedly.
When one is a child and in the hands of the most emotionally influential person in one’s life — at three or 13 — one is truly helpless. You are a god in that kid’s world. And you are abusing your position as such.
It doesn’t matter if a butt can withstand more of a beating than a face. It’s the act that counts. What kind of a pathetic person in this privileged society needs to resort to hitting a smaller being that lives only to please them?
“Nobody” summed it all up perfectly. If you aren’t approachable on the level of sheer empathy, maybe those other points about how you will contribute to the decline of our society may get through.
25 March 2006, on 10:53 am
Marcus said:
Don’t you mean-
“grow up with a chip on their shoulder and a knee-jerk reaction to what they believe is wrong in even philosophical arenas (ala Paul Manata) and a willingness to engage in aggressive behavior or physical hostility to prove their point when feeling: a) belittled b) questioned c) proven wrong. Thank god for spanking!”
Developmental psychology still says you’re wrong. Address the experts first.
Hells yeah.
25 March 2006, on 11:04 am
Corporal punishment as a human rights issue:
http://www.nospank.net/unesco.htm
Demystifying the Defenses of Corporal Punishment:
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP64E.htm
Corporal Punishment in Schools, from the National Association of School Psychologists:
http://www.nasponline.org/information/pospaper_corppunish.html
Effects of Chronic Early Stress Due to Harsh Corporal Punishment on Brain Development and Risk for Substance Abuse:
http://www.mclean.harvard.edu/research/clinicalunit/dbrp/est.php
Physical Punishment and The Development of Aggressive and Violent Behavior:
http://www.neverhitachild.org/areview.html#LABEL2
So Why do We Spank?
http://life.familyeducation.com/spanking/discipline/36228.html
Man, this society has gone waaaaay to far in trying to protect its children from life-long trauma and the perpetuation of violent solutions to life’s problems. All this research sickens me. I just wanna hit a kid… And you have no right to tell me I can’t!
25 March 2006, on 11:29 am
““grow up with a chip on their shoulder and a knee-jerk reaction to what they believe is wrong in even philosophical arenas (ala Paul Manata) and a willingness to engage in aggressive behavior or physical hostility to prove their point when feeling: a) belittled b) questioned c) proven wrong.”
Wow. That’s me to a T! Thank you so much! I can now blame all my problems on the fact that my parents spanked me a couple of times. Whew! I’m so glad I’ve been given an excuse to not take responsibility for my own emotional well-being! I’ll be a much happier person now that I can just point to a few isolated incidents in my childhood as an excuse for my adult behavior.
By the way, I already waived the white flag on this one. Agreeing to disagree. The conversation has dissolved to the point where the same arguments are being made over and over again by both sides. It’s obvious that no one is going to change anyone else’s mind on this issue. We should get back to more common ground. Gee, those xians really suck, huh?
25 March 2006, on 11:50 am
The child should fear the stairs.
When our oldest son was a toddler, when he approached stairs we taught him how to go up and down using the handrails…we did not teach him to be AFRAID OF SOMETHING THAT MUST BE USED IN EVERYDAY LIFE ALL OF OUR LIVES. We said “be careful, Jason…hold the handrail.” and he would say to himself even…”be careful Jason”…it was so cute. Our children have LEARNED right from wrong by example…and not by THREAT.
As for 4 month olds…if they are crawling at that age that is really young…most babies are just starting to scoot around at that age…crawling is average around 6 months…any child or toddler should never be left ANYWHERE unsupervised..especially around stairs.
Using Holly’s method of instilling FEAR of stairs causing great paranoia and fear of stairs. My parents made me afraid of water. I was TERRIFIED of swimming pools, lakes and any kind of water till I was 30 something.
25 March 2006, on 11:57 am
And speaking of xians…spanking the child is a leftover thing from xianity and religious teachings that we need to let go of. It’s imbedded in our culture..whereas in Sweden, for instance…a country that is over 60% secular/atheists, they do not spank their children and it is a national crime to do so. Children there have the same rights and protections as adults. Their children turn out very well and more peaceful than most Americans are. (I have a good friend in Sweden, and my oldest son has a Swedish roommate who can vouch for this.)
25 March 2006, on 12:14 pm
Fear is a basic human response, and should be learned. The child should fear the stairs.
You know, they make baby gates now that block off stairs and such. My brother has a youngin and he just keeps the baby gate closed so that the the kid can’t get hurt on the stairs in the first place. As soon as she is old enough, then he will teach her to walk the stairs. I figured this would be common sense. Maybe people shouldn’t be raising kids in the first place if they can’t figure things like this out.
You’re quite right about fear though, it seems to play a huge part in Christianity. I guess teaching kids to fear things makes it a little easier to brainwash them into fearing God as they get older (practice makes perfect).
25 March 2006, on 12:19 pm
Here are photos of a 4-month-old baby.
How could any caring adult have the heart to hit her little legs with a switch?
25 March 2006, on 1:25 pm
As she points out, you plan on beating your children before you even have them. If Star and others like her can prove that children can be raised and not turn out to be “little monsters” (I would argue that more children who are beaten turn into big monsters than those who were never beaten at all; where does domestic violence come from I wonder? Hmmmm.) without beating them, then why not choose the “non-beating” method first, rather than default to the idea that children should be beaten?
To quote myself: “I certainly won’t use it as a first resort…”
Bullshit. Ad hominem where?
In the fact that he tried to belittle me and my intelligence as opposed to my argument. Even going so far as to imply that I would have to be on drugs to belive as I do.
Notice the caps lock, before Bob’s caps lock, and the personal, totally unfounded attack on Star, who actually has raised children, where you have not. Ad hominem? Please. When are you going to offer her an apology for being dead wrong about her?
I believe my exact works were caps-lock “abuse.” I count one instance of caps-lock use in two of my posts, and eight in his.
Can you point out where I made a personal attack on Star? Or is it supposed to be when I said she had a condescending attitude toward parents who spank their children? That’s called an opinion. I felt that she was talking down to Holly, and pointed it out. Hardly what I’d call a personal attack. Certainly not comparable with implying that she is stupid or high, as Bob did with me.
a 12-month old (or earlier)
beating a four-month-old
I challenge you to point out one instance of where I specifically mentioned that spanking an infant is okay. You keep using these ages for their shock value, and it’s not working. I said that I believe in spanking unruly children have been told numerous times to cease an undesirable behavior, and have the capacity to understand what it is that they’re being told. I have never condoned spanking a baby, who can’t even control their bladder, let alone understand the difference between right and wrong. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I happen to know Bob personally and his child is incredibly beautiful and well-adjusted.
Star, who actually has raised children
So their anecdotes beat my anecdotes? While I haven’t had children personally, I have had a hand (hee! lookit the pun! get it? hand? spanking?) in raising dozens of them through work in babysitting and daycare. I’ve seen spanking work firsthand. Those children turned out great, too. So why does their anecdotal support outweigh mine? Oh, right. Because you agree with them.
Sean, when you’ve finished with they Hypocrisy Stick, can you let someone else borrow it?
Marcus said:
Developmental psychology still says you’re wrong. Address the experts first.
And I disagree with developmental psychology. Oh, snap!
25 March 2006, on 1:37 pm
I think humans have a long way to go before we are all truly civilized. Ancient thinking, xian methods and traditions are much too imbedded and ingrained in our brains and culture.
Funny how people are against developmental psychology, yet that is what doctors and other educated professionals go by in consideration of child education and development.
25 March 2006, on 1:53 pm
I don’t think Sean is being hypocritical…
If anything is hypocritical is to have laws saying adults cannot hit other adults, but it’s ok for adults to hit children because it is called “spanking”. THAT is hypocritical.
I don’t think adults would stand for being swatted with switches for small crimes such as speeding, for instance (which nearly every drive is guilty of)…how about if instead of a ticket..which most people do not learn from…we would whack them a few times with a big switch on their bare ass??? Think adults would learn better?
25 March 2006, on 2:25 pm
You don’t think it’s hypocritical to accuse someone of using personal attacks, but blind-sighting the ones from others who agree with him?
Or to put value in anecdotes that support his position, but completely ignore ones that go against him?
Wow. ‘Cuz that only defines hypocrisy.
25 March 2006, on 2:37 pm
Would you like to be spanked Julie for doing something wrong in life…which we all do at one time or another. (After rethinking this, not meaning this towards anyone here, but there may be too many adults that might actually LIKE being spanked)
Julie – What do you think about it being against the laws of the land for adults to hit each other but perfectly ok for adults to hit children as long as it’s called “spanking.”
What do you think about spanking and whipping being grounded in ancient religions?
25 March 2006, on 2:43 pm
http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/
http://www.corpun.com/benatar.htm
These are some “expert” opposing viewpoints to the “all CP is bad” POV. This debate is getting really polarized, unecessarily. I think the reasonable people here who condone disciplinary CP, do so in a form that is much milder than the opposition thinks.
By the way, I’m curious about some of the alternatives to CP that opponents would suggest? Grounding I think is very effective, but it does come at a significant cost too in both emotional terms and lost time.
To the folks who think just reasoning with kids works for everybody, behold me! I am your counter example. As a child I can literally recall moments of thinking “hahaha..these fools, they *warn* me the first time, I get to try everything once!” I kid you not. And I also remember discussions where things were being explained to me, and meanwhile i was thinking, but not saying, my estimate of the situation and why I knew it was ok. The dialogue was one way and not productive until years later I could see the risks more clearly. Reasoning must be done. It is a core responsibility of a parent. But sometimes it is only planting seeds that will bare fruit much later, unfortunately.
All that said, I think there should be clear laws limiting the use and type of corporal punishment by parents. It does tend to be used excessively and in the stead of good parenting in more situations than it used soundly. There is plenty of justification in the prevailing anti CP sentiments. But I dont agree that there is no place at all for reasonable use of CP. We maybe we should work to try and establish standards and equivalence.
25 March 2006, on 2:47 pm
Bible quotes in support of spanking:
“Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.” (Proverbs 22:15 ASV*)
God “chastens the sons whom He loves and scourges them” (Hebrews 12).
“Withhold not correction from the child; For if thou beat him with the rod, he will not die.” (Pro 23:13-14)
“Chasten thy son, seeing there is hope; and set not thy heart on his destruction.” (Pro 19:18)
I can provide more if anyone needs more. Spanking a child is based on barbaric ancient religion.
25 March 2006, on 2:54 pm
Would you like to be spanked Julie for doing something wrong in life…which we all do at one time or another.
No, of course not. That’s the point. It’s an negative consequence to a undesirable behavior.
What do you think about it being against the laws of the land for adults to hit each other but perfectly ok for adults to hit children as long as it’s called “spanking.”
I think the laws are bullshit. I think if two, consenting adults want to beat the shit out of each other, then they should legally be allowed to do so. But outside of that, you’re trying to draw a comparison between two things that I see as completely different. I don’t view the amount of damage done by a swat to the bottom as being in any way comparable to a punch to the face.
Remember, you don’t distinguish between these two. I do.
What do you think about spanking and whipping being grounded in ancient religions?
I don’t think anything of it, really. Murder, adultery and theft are also tenets of religion, but I’m not apt to do any of those, either. Trying to use my atheism against me? Tsk.
25 March 2006, on 3:00 pm
Steve,
Parenting is time consuming and exasperating at times. I sometimes don’t know how I survived raising three children to adulthood and kept my sanity…but I did. Our middle son was a real challenge…always pushing the boundaries, and we were always having to readjust our strategy. But we managed to do it without hitting him. None of our three children have been in trouble with the law (that we know of anyway LOL!) and they are respectful and caring adults. Even the middle son who gave us a run for our money. We had to readjust certain methods and consequences for each child. Parenting is not easy and I think too many people go into parenthood thinking about this cute little baby and not all the work and emotional effort, and brain power that goes into it. It is a HUGE undertaking and the most difficult thing that anyone will ever do in life. But it can also be the most rewarding accomplishment to have your kids turn out well. One thing I can see from everyone here, no matter our differences is that we are all concerned with how our kids will turn out. And that is a good thing.
25 March 2006, on 3:19 pm
Stardust,
I truly admire your accomplishment. My opposition is merely to the idea that all forms of corporeal punishment should be illegal. I think that is far too drastic and strikes me as a similar mentality as the anti-abortion group that “all abortion is bad”. The truth is, we draw an arbitrary line through the grey zone where we think the greatest good is done. There are exceedingly few stark lines in the universe and this isn’t one of them. The extreme strategies that you adopted to deal with your kids’ worse behavior could probably be easily shown to not work with certain other kids and with other kids they might even cause more lasting emotional impact than a smack on the bottom. Is it really worse to strike a childs bottom with the same force your hand freely falls six inches or incarcerate them for a two weeks?
Because thats what grounding is, incarceration. I challenge you to define for me how they are clearly different.
25 March 2006, on 3:20 pm
One other thing I would like to point out…it is my hope that new parents will try to do all they can to find other forms of discipline.
There is so much information and so much help out there. It is proven through research that Hitters become Hitters (as a couple have proven above by saying they plan to spank their children and they aren’t even parents yet.)
In Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Croatia, Cyprus, Latvia, Italy, Israel, Germany and Austria, it is illegal for a parent, teacher, or anyone else to spank a child. If these countries have been successful in childraising without spanking, maybe we should try and find out what they are doing intead.
Here is a great link I found The Natural Child
25 March 2006, on 3:24 pm
Steve…you are much bigger than a child. Hitting someone smaller than you is being a bully. You are much bigger and stronger and could hurt a child. It is easy to lose control especially when a child FIGHTS the spanking…my father is a good example of this with me and my siblings…when we fought back, or struggled…we ended up getting bruised. I am a victim of corporal punishment abuse…it is too easy for many parents to lose control.
25 March 2006, on 3:30 pm
I have to make a correction…I mean to write “The one being hit becomes the hitter” not the hitter becomes the hitter…sorry
25 March 2006, on 3:53 pm
Steve,
Again, I am only encouraging people to find alternative methods of discipline. There are a lot of websites and one could even ask their pediatricians for assistance in finding helpful information and suggestions on the subject of child discipline. In our modern world, there is a wealth of helpful information and organizations out there so one can find all kinds of options rather than having to resort to violence to get a child to learn appropriate hehavior.
25 March 2006, on 5:57 pm
Stardust,
I am right behind you. Yours is the model of parenting. Your strategy should be the first tried with any randomly chosen child. I only ask you allow that it might fail, or that in some cases it may simply be suboptimal for a given child, that other strategies might be even more harmful for certain children, if they need be taken to an extreme made necessary by the absence of alternatives.
We have the same goal. And probably would even agree on what constitutes abuse in the extremes of any form of negative feedback. But negative feedback is precisely that. Negative. And any form of negative feedback taken to an extreme can do more harm than good. We should be splitting hairs over what is too much or too little in a specific hypothetical situation, not assuming absolutist, inflexible, religious stances one way or the other.
This site is devoted to militant atheism and I see that mentality as useful balast to the other rampants extremes out there. Nevertheless I find it kind of scary sometimes.
25 March 2006, on 7:01 pm
Steve,
As for the stance of non-spanking. It is not a militant position. It is a position of peace. I don’t know how I can be considered “too negative” about ANTI-VIOLENCE. I cannot see how anything is worse than physical or verbal abuse…I grew up with both.
As for “militant” atheism…this is a place to voice our frustrations about having to live in a superstitious society surrounded by religious nutballs. I am glad I have found a place to vent after having to be “politically correct” out there in our crazy superstitious society. I doubt there is anyone on this blog who is going to go out and firebomb a house of a christian, or lynch a christian, or picket in front of christian homes, or any of the other things that “militant” xians do. When is the last time you saw atheists doing any of that on the evening news??? But we see plenty of it from the christians, muslims and jews.
26 March 2006, on 12:16 am
“Wow. That’s me to a T! Thank you so much! I can now blame all my problems on the fact that my parents spanked me a couple of times. Whew! I’m so glad I’ve been given an excuse to not take responsibility for my own emotional well-being! I’ll be a much happier person now that I can just point to a few isolated incidents in my childhood as an excuse for my adult behavior.”
No it doesn’t justify, but it would explain a lot of assholes. Where would you get the idea that a troubled childhood lets people off the hook? Certainly not from forensic psychologists.
“And I disagree with developmental psychology. Oh, snap!”
Congratulations, you just proved that you’re an idiot. Let’s analyze this-
Expert: This research, conducted over several years in rigorously documented cases and with full approval of its methodology by an ivy league IRB, is conclusive.
Julie: I think spankin’ don’t make- HEY!!! PUT THAT BROOM DOWN YOU LITTLE SHIT!!! I’LL KICK YER ASS RIGHT NOW!!!
26 March 2006, on 12:17 am
I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to call BS on the “absolutely no corporeal punishment” crowd. CP is not black and white, it is a gray area. I myself was beaten as a child, and I say beaten because some times I feel that it was truly bordering on abuse. Did I deserve some of it? Probably. All of it? Most certainly not. Did it stop me from doing whatever I was being punished for? The results were mixed. Are my parents perfect? Hell no, they are human. Did I grow up (note that I am only 18) to be some twisted, sick, sadist? Actually, I would say that I am one of the most peaceful, easy going, and thoughtful person that I know.
My brother, on the other hand, is a different story (not that he is a sick, twisted, sadist). He too was spanked as a child, but it never seemed to deter him. Other punishments, primarily grounding and revocation of various privileges, also failed to deter him from being an all-around asshole. No form of punishment, corporeal or otherwise, seems to have had any discernible effect on his behavior.
I have a good friend whose father has never beaten her, yet who imposes more and more restrictions on her social life for perceived offenses. She is literally becoming an emotional wreck from these psychological punishments, yet a hand was never laid upon her and she is otherwise a normal, alilbit “clingy” person.
Some of my friends who were never spanked as children are nice people. Some can be downright disrespectful assholes. The same holds true for those who were spanked as children.
My point in sharing these anecdotes is that a solution to the problem of child-rearing and punishment is not a one-size-fits-all kind of deal. Different people will react to different forms of punishment in their own unique ways. While I don’t condone the physical abuse of a child, the problem therein lies with defining “abuse”. To me, a few whacks on the rear with a hand of soup spoon or willow switch does not constitute abuse. Hitting someone repeatedly in the legs with a baseball bat certainly is. Slapping someone on the wrists with a ruler or switch is not abuse (and I think the decline of discipline in schools today in America is a direct result of the banning of this sort of corporeal punishment and bear in mind that I am currently STILL IN THE SYSTEM) while breaking the skin and causing massive bruising is undoubtedly so.
To all of you parents who claim to have risen wonderful children without the use of CP, I take my hat off to you. I might doubt the veracity of your claims, as parents all to often cast their children in the best of lights even when they know everything (doubtful) that their progeny do. However, your observations do not hold true for every case and though your intentions might be for good, I implore that you remember this when you call for the banning of all forms of corporeal punishment.
26 March 2006, on 12:35 am
Throughout all my decades of motherhood, I have learned that guidance is best…focus on the positive and not the punishments. Guidance, nurturing, understanding, communication etc. With all this there will be much less need for punishments of any sorts. Open communication and nurturing is the key…and availability. In this rush rush world it is too easy to say punish the kid instead of LISTENING to him or her. Usually when there are issues enough to need punishments, there is a greater need for the parents to LISTEN to what the problem might be that is causing the bad behaviors. Even if you listen to a three year old you can find out what their problem is. In my experience as a mother and a teacher, I have learned A LOT over the years.
The commentors here who are in favor of spanking seem young…once you have a sweet baby of your own you may have a whole different outlook. You will want to build a bond with that child and have that child trust you. My kids, who are now grown, have always been able to talk to me about ANYTHING…sometimes it is not what I wanted to hear, but they always knew they could come to me about anything without fear.
I have seen my friends kids who were spanked and punished hide things, lie, and were very rebellious during the teenage years whereas I didn’t have that experience as drastically with my three.
26 March 2006, on 12:44 am
My last comment on this will be…
It is hard to believe this is 2006 with so much medieval thinking still going on.
26 March 2006, on 2:48 am
My last comment on this will be a quote:
“Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right.”
–Van der Post, The Lost World of the Kalahari, 1958
26 March 2006, on 4:38 am
# stardust1954 Says:
March 26th, 2006 at 12:44 am e
My last comment on this will be…
It is hard to believe this is 2006 with so much medieval thinking still going on.
I’m with you, Star. The perpetuation of violence has never been more obvious to me than in this thread. Steve: yes, we who believe in non-violence do believe we are right. That’s what we call hope for humanity. Anything else is nihilism in my book.
26 March 2006, on 4:49 am
Star said:
Steve,
As for the stance of non-spanking. It is not a militant position. It is a position of peace. I don’t know how I can be considered “too negative” about ANTI-VIOLENCE. I cannot see how anything is worse than physical or verbal abuse…I grew up with both
You go, Star. You have been accused of extreme views and militant stances in this thread for advocating NON-VIOLENCE. I find this absolutely absurd.
Any adult who has to resort to hitting a being 1/5th their size and vastly their emotional inferior has failed utterly to act as an adult. Anybody in a position of power — parent, bigger playground coeval, husband, etc. — who takes that power and uses it to physically harm another being because they were too cruel and lazy to find a peaceful solution, has failed.
Not to be corny, but as Spider-Man knows, with great power comes great responsibility. Those in this thread who keep putting the burden of proof back on those of us who are against corporal punishment have yet to show us why it’s better to hit rather than to find alternative methods of discipline. Why wouldn’t one choose the path of non-violence? And it that “failed,” why wouldn’t one wonder how it could better succeed, and work toward it, rather than give in to their worst instincts and take the cheapest route to a so-called “solution” — start hitting?
Like I said before: who is more likely to grow up and beat someone else in their lives? The kid who was beaten, or the one who never was? How simple is this equation?
26 March 2006, on 4:58 am
PS: I composed a lengthy response to a bunch of things that were said here and thought better of it. I have the privilege of being able to go back and edit or delete my own comments. I just saw no point in arguing further. Earlier in the thread, I posted a bunch of links to developmental research that shows corporal punishment has negative effects in many ways. Interesting reading. Check it out.
26 March 2006, on 10:40 am
Those godly folks sure do have a corner on the values market. Our theocratic president would be proud of them.
26 March 2006, on 5:00 pm
Marcus said:
Congratulations, you just proved that you’re an idiot.
Expert: This research, conducted over several years in rigorously documented cases and with full approval of its methodology by an ivy league IRB, is conclusive.
Julie: I think spankin’ don’t make- HEY!!! PUT THAT BROOM DOWN YOU LITTLE SHIT!!! I’LL KICK YER ASS RIGHT NOW!!!
See, Sean? This is ad hominem. Also, strawman. Therefore, not a valid argument.
But I’d still be happy to debunk it further.
You see, Marcus, the reason I disagree with developmental psychology, and indeed most modern psychology, is that it rarely ever follows the scientific method. Too often we see studies starting out with an obvious bias, its investigators working toward proving their theory, instead of letting the evidence speak for itself. Selectively choosing only those results which support their hypothesis.
So, that is where my faith in modern day psychology dies. But, since you seem to put a lot of stock in it, here are some of those “experts” you mentioned who clearly disagree with you:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/103/3/696 (Notice the references on this one, which effectively serve as… *counts* At least sixteen other studies, articles, etc. that support corporeal punishment.)
http://www.radford.edu/~pjackson/4Larzelereetal1996toddlerdiscipline.pdf (This one is rather long, so I’ll sum it up for you. Basically they find that corporeal punishment, when used with reasoning, is as effective and with as few repeats of the behavior as incorporeal punishment.)
And that’s from five minutes with Google.
So, basically Marcus, one of my main problems with psychology is that for every “expert” who claims X, there will be another that claims not-X. And each have their own evidence to support their claim. Evidence that is not able to be recreated, and would not hold up in under scientific or peer scrutiny.
But what do I know? I’m an idiot.
27 March 2006, on 7:08 am
I can’t believe in 2006 there’s still people who think sparing the rod spoils the child.
If there’s nothing wrong with spanking/hitting/beating your kids, why does the source book say not to do it in front of others?
Sorry. It’s ALWAYS wrong; I don’t care how anyone try to justify it.
27 March 2006, on 8:05 am
Lya said:
78.
If there’s nothing wrong with spanking/hitting/beating your kids, why does the source book say not to do it in front of others?
Sorry. It’s ALWAYS wrong; I don’t care how anyone try to justify it.
Yup. If you have to resort to beating a being 1/10th your age and 1/5th your size, you have squandered all other resources, emotional and intellectual, at your disposal, and reduced yourself to the basest of your instincts.
(This one is rather long, so I’ll sum it up for you. Basically they find that corporeal punishment, when used with reasoning, is as effective and with as few repeats of the behavior as incorporeal punishment.)
Wow. So they even out? So if I don’t hit a child I have about as much success as if I do? Clearly, I would want to default to hitting.
Julie… So what is your take on psychology? Really not following you there. What’s the scientific method you use in understanding child behavior beyond the Dickensian era?
I am only being partially sarcastic. Really. Is your solution that we discount all modern research on child behavior and just go by whether our parents successfully hit us or not as a guide post to morality on this issue?
As Star has been trying to point out: if one can successfully rear children without physical abuse, why wouldn’t one? Why would one even want to have children with the full knowledge that one plans to hit them, rather than to try and evolve to a higher standard of child rearing? Why would one plan to spank one’s children even before they exists? What’s the point? Why even have kids if you are going to be so lazy and simple in response to the complexity of dealing with their needs and emotions.
Kids don’t need to be hit to make great kids. Sorrr, but this is like arguing with a theist. The assertion that kids should or need to be beaten in order to make good kids places the burden of proof upon you. You have only shown a couple of examples that claim it might not do as much harm as one would think. We argue that the burden of proof, before you raise your hand against a child, rests upon you to prove that you aren’t doing serious harm.
27 March 2006, on 10:00 am
Sean, I’ve already answered all of your questions already in my previous posts, but I’ll repeat myself in a condensed version:
- I won’t spank as a first resort. I will try other methods first.
- I’ve been actively involved in the lives of enough children to know that reasoning, time outs, grounding and taking away of priviledges won’t work every time. Thus, I plan on spanking, because I am realistic enough to know that it will come to that at some point. If I am lucky enough to have a child who never needs to be spanked, then that would be wonderful. I just don’t expect it, because as I said, I know kids.
So when I say I plan on spanking my kids, what I mean is that I plan on keeping the option available.
You have only shown a couple of examples that claim it might not do as much harm as one would think.
And those examples are pretty damn solid. They have as much research, study and analytical reasoning as the ones you have provided, and in some cases, much more. I think I’ve fulfilled my burden of proof. You may not, but opinions are subjective.
27 March 2006, on 12:09 pm
“Thus, I plan on spanking, because I am realistic enough to know that it will come to that at some point. If I am lucky enough to have a woman who never needs to be spanked, then that would be wonderful. I just don’t expect it, because as I said, I know women.”
Sounds the same to me. If it’s occasionally ok to hit your kids because other forms of discipline may not work, then following that logic it’s also occasionally okay to hit your spouse.
Sorry, unconvinced. I spent a lot of time around kids too.
27 March 2006, on 1:43 pm
*snerk*
Yup. Because I use the same argument to apply to children as wife beaters use to defend their actions, the argument is completely irrelevant.
Y’know, child molesters use the same argument to defend their lifestyle as the gay community. That what they do in the privacy of their own bedrooms is no one’s business, that they’re being oppressed by a conservative society who doesn’t understand them…
And yet, somehow, when the gay community uses this argument we accept it, but dismiss the pedofiles automatically. In other words, your comparison falls flat. Just because the same arugment is used to defend completely different things, does not make it wrong.
27 March 2006, on 2:20 pm
“*snerk*”
And the maturity level drops even lower.
“Because I use the same argument to apply to children as wife beaters use to defend their actions, the argument is completely irrelevant.”
Glad we agree.
“Y’know, child molesters use the same argument to defend their lifestyle as the gay community. That what they do in the privacy of their own bedrooms is no one’s business, that they’re being oppressed by a conservative society who doesn’t understand them…”
This makes absolutely no sense. How does this even slightly relate to the topic at hand?
“And yet, somehow, when the gay community uses this argument we accept it, but dismiss the pedofiles automatically. In other words, your comparison falls flat. Just because the same arugment is used to defend completely different things, does not make it wrong. “
Actually, Snerker, it’s your argument that falls flat. The Gay community isn’t defending an illegal act. Child molestors, spouse abusers and child abusers are.
The point you’re completely missing (or deliberately ignoring) here is that since it isn’t alright to beat up a spouse, I fail to see how any sane person can then claim it is okay to beat a kid. Regardless of the silly little justifications you put with it, your argument fails. It is never okay to hit someone else, if you’re life or someone else’s life isn’t in danger. ESPECIALLY not when the one being hit is not your equal in size or strength.
27 March 2006, on 6:39 pm
Great discussion, everyone, on an extremely important topic. I don’t have kids, nor have I helped in rearing any, other than babysitting some as a teenager and doting on my niece, and I don’t plan on having any, so I feel I best serve this subject as an observer.
That said, in absolute honesty, were my feelings and circumstances to change and a child were to enter my life in some way, I personally would pattern my parenting after stardust1954’s model. Just me…
27 March 2006, on 7:02 pm
Actually, Snerker, it’s your argument that falls flat. The Gay community isn’t defending an illegal act.
Last I checked, it wasn’t illegal to spank a child. So it is you, dear, who is attempting to draw a comparison between an illegal act and one that is not.
27 March 2006, on 7:07 pm
By the way, Lya:
This makes absolutely no sense. How does this even slightly relate to the topic at hand?
Kind of what I was wondering when you dragged spousal abuse into this.
27 March 2006, on 8:21 pm
Wow. This conversation just keeps going and going and going.
Btw, thanks, Julie, for jumping in and taking up for my opinion. I appreciate it.
Nobody commenting on this post is a bad person, and nobody commenting on this post thinks that abusing children is ok. It’s just that our definitions of what constitutes abuse differ. Even at that, I think if everyone was honest, the definitions would only differ slightly. I believe that they range from absolutely never ever lay a harsh hand on your child, to very rarely lay a very slightly harsh hand on your child, and only then as a last resort. Wow, what a wide chasm. How ever will we traverse it?
If the absolutely not under no circumstances people really believed that, then they’d be calling the police every time they saw a parent swat a child’s hand in the grocery store. I refuse to believe that they are quite that unreasonable.
I’ve seen numerous people basically say that you are perpetuating xian beliefs if you spank your child, because CP is encouraged in the bible. Seems to me that saying absolutely no CP ever, and that you have the right to dictate to everyone else how they will and will not discipline their children, is just another form of extremism, much like xians practice today. I know, I know, you will be a citizen of the world in which these children will live, and therefore you should be able to have a say in how they are disciplined, because you believe that this will have a direct impact on the state of society when they are grown. Don’t you think that xians give themselves the same answer for why they get to have a say in how you live your life?
27 March 2006, on 9:20 pm
Nobody commenting on this post is a bad person, and nobody commenting on this post thinks that abusing children is ok. It’s just that our definitions of what constitutes abuse differ…
I believe that they range from absolutely never ever lay a harsh hand on your child, to very rarely lay a very slightly harsh hand on your child, and only then as a last resort. Wow, what a wide chasm. How ever will we traverse it?
*bows* Well put, Holly.
27 March 2006, on 9:45 pm
I have an example.
How would the adults here feel about being “spanked” or beat with a cane for things they do wrong? Like speeding for example. Most adults speed while driving…not many obey the speed limits even after getting repeated tickets. Adults never seem to learn from tickets or even having their license suspended for awhile. Most go back to disobeying that law.
There are other laws that adults repeatedly break and usual fines and penalties do not deter…should we just start whacking everyone across the ass and legs with a big switch?
I do not think there is an American adult who would be in favor of being physically punished like they do in Singapore.
27 March 2006, on 10:00 pm
Stardust, I think you’ve made that point a couple of times already. Maybe we should start ticketing misbehaving children.
But, seriously… will the officer handing out the spankings be cute? Frankly, I could handle a spanking better than I could handle the $100 ticket right now, so maybe we should implement it. Matter of fact, I’ll write to my Congressman right now!
27 March 2006, on 10:18 pm
I guess you missed my point.
28 March 2006, on 7:16 am
“Last I checked, it wasn’t illegal to spank a child. So it is you, dear, who is attempting to draw a comparison between an illegal act and one that is not.”
Semantics. Spanking is beating. Beating is illegal. But you tell yourself whatever justifications you need to make it sound okay to beat a kid.
“Kind of what I was wondering when you dragged spousal abuse into this. “
It’s extremely obvious why I did.
28 March 2006, on 8:27 am
Stardust, no, I didn’t miss your point. I just disagree.
28 March 2006, on 11:27 am
My original comment was bumped. I’ll try putting it a different way.
Corporal punishers should beware that their physical advantage doesn’t last forever.
Call it kharma.
28 March 2006, on 12:22 pm
Chang – Prezactly.
Three times in my life my mother got angry enough to wrap her hand around my throat and wind up as if she was going to punch me. (I think I dared not do the dishes properly or something.) The first two times, my wide-eyded expression of fear stopped her. The third time, my narrow-eyed expression of “I dare you” stopped her.
Kids grow up. Spanking them now teaches them that hitting someone is the way to get what you want. So what’s to stop them from hitting you later?
28 March 2006, on 12:51 pm
Oh, Chang, I absolutely agree.
When I turned sixteen, and I was finally big enough to fight back, I did. When my dad had a belt aimed at my face, I beat him until he was bruised and bleeding, for all of the times when I couldn’t.
The thing that you can’t seem to wrap your minds around, and indeed seem incapable of distinguishing between, is the difference between discipline and abuse. One of my parents spanked me. One of them abused me. I am intimately aware of the difference between them, and I grew up hating one, and respecting the other. I’ve never raised a hand to my mother in my life, and the thought of hurting her makes me sick.
28 March 2006, on 1:04 pm
“The thing that you can’t seem to wrap your minds around, and indeed seem incapable of distinguishing between, is the difference between discipline and abuse.”
*lol* Yeah, we’re all just to stupid it get it, because we disagree with you.
No, Julie, I understand perfectly. I just think statements like this are total bullshit. Discipline, when it involved physical harm, is abuse. If one parents abuses a child less, or in a way likely to cause less harm, doesn’t mean it’s not abuse. Discipline need not include striking a child. What is so complicated about this?
And if the thought of raising you hand to your mother makes you sick, why are you defending raising your hand to a (hypothetical) child?
28 March 2006, on 1:25 pm
Because, again, I distinguish between the two. You don’t.
In fact, this entire argument is getting rather pointless, because of that very reason. As Holly mentioned earlier, our definitions and where we draw lines differ. No one is going to win over the other side. We’ve all presented evidence that supports our argument, but in the end, no one will be swayed. It’s getting a little old, repeating myself, and seeing the same rebuttals in return.
28 March 2006, on 1:33 pm
“It’s getting a little old, repeating myself, and seeing the same rebuttals in return. ”
That’s what I’ve been saying since comment #47!
28 March 2006, on 1:53 pm
Eh, I’ve always been stubborn. Up until the point when I get bored. *laughs*
28 March 2006, on 8:00 pm
I am so glad I live in Chicagoland and not Oklahoma. It’s a whole different world.
29 March 2006, on 7:26 pm
Join the boycott – all of you. Put the anti spank logo on your website!
http://asmallcornerofnowhere.blogspot.com/2006/03/boycott-pearls-old-schoolhouse.html
29 March 2006, on 9:50 pm
Doc is right. You should join the boycott. The Pearls very existence is an abomination against children (I have one and I used to be one). The link she gave is my boycott kit. Get some graphics. Write some emails. Sign a petition or two. It WILL make a difference.
11 February 2007, on 2:08 pm
I have no love for religion fundamentalism of any kind, but I also can’t stand the anti-spank Nazis. Who the hell do people think they are to dictate everyone else’s parenting?
I’m a completely secular dad of one active boy, and yes, he does get spankings. I must give credit to fundie Xians where it’s due–they do tend to have well-behaved, respectful, polite kids. Sorry if that disturbs some of your worldviews, but I’ve seen it myself.
11 February 2007, on 2:13 pm
DJ – I have seen fundies in my own family who spank and discipline their children physically and those kids are afraid to open their mouths and question anything (some are now unwed mothers, and others have been in trouble with the law through their rebellious teens and early adulthood). I managed to raise three children with no spanking (and my kids have never been in trouble with the law, and are decent law-abiding citizens). Being a teacher, I know that physical punishment in the home is related to lower self-esteem and lower test scores, etc. (I was also one of these children who grew up in a home of regular corporal punishment. It’s humiliating for a child, especially an early teen.)
It takes brains and patience, and a lot more listening and understanding on the part of the parent. Hitting is barbaric and if we are to ever become truly civilized, we must try to avoid violence of all types.
If you hit another person who is not your child, you go to jail. If you strike an adult child, they can have you arrested for domestic assault. But it is ok to strike your underage child, especially a tiny one? Like I said,we are the adults and we should be able to use our brains instead of a paddle.
11 February 2007, on 2:24 pm
I simply don’t agree that corporal punishment is a form of violence–when it’s used as punishment, not a parental tantrum. I didn’t think of it as violence when I was a kid and got spanked, and I still don’t think of it as violence.
There’s a middle ground to be had between questioning nothing and questioning everything. I don’t want my kid to question why his bedtime is 8 and not 8:15. That I said so is good enough for some questions. Sorry if that offends people.
11 February 2007, on 2:28 pm
D.J. – Spanking is the lazy way out. I am glad I am not your child. You have not taken the time to consider or understand anything I have said. You simply choose to beat.
11 March 2007, on 1:37 am
Hi everyone, I’m so glad to see that most of you all are against spanking. I am only 15 but I strongly believe that children should be raised without violence. I couldn’t believe it when I read about the people who hit their 4-month old baby! Have they ever heard of baby gates?! Duh! That’s exactly what those are for! Anyone who wants to hurt a baby like that needs to take a trip to the psychiatrist.
My parents raised both my older brother and me without hitting us. Well, my mom did hit me once or twice when I was little when she got really frustrated. But she always apologized afterwards and told me that it was never right to hit people and that she made a mistake. I learned quite well just from my parents teaching me. And to this day, I love and respect my parents very much, because they loved and respected me. I am so thankful that I’m not one of those teenagers who is fighting with their parents 24/7. We have a great relationship. The majority of people at my school who have talked about being spanked when they were younger are the ones who are depressed, getting poor grades, and have behavior problems. I understand that this is not the case for every single person who was spanked, but why would you want to take the chance of your child turning out that way? And it drives me crazy when people use the verse “spare the rod and spoil the child” to justify hurting their children.
This was going good up till now…then you have to ruin it by involving mythology when only common sense and intelligence is needed.
Yes, I am a Christian, and yes, I believe in the bible. But in the Bible, shepherds used the rod to guide their sheep, not to beat them. So I believe that that verse simply means that you have to guide and teach your children.
People can interpret the bible any way they want to suit their needs. Most of the time it is used as justification, and many believe your interpretation is wrong. Leave religion out of it and maybe people will just start thinking on their own and using reason and common sense when raising children.
Honestly, can you imagine God hitting a child??
The god of your xian mythology orders the death of infants by the multitudes, and kills babies in floods, and lets children and infants around the planet starve, suffer abuse and neglect and terrible pain and death from terminal illnesses. Hitting a child would be nothing for this god of yours. You can imagine this god any way you want in your own mind, but read and know what is in your damn holy book.
But you go on to end well, but you could have left out the whole god bit in the middle.
Well, I guess that’s about it. Please, if you hit your children, figure out ways to discipline them non-violently! There is already too much violence in this world, and hitting children only contributes to it. I know some of you won’t take me seriously because you may be thinking that I’m just some stupid teenager who knows nothing about raising children. But I have learned so much from the way my parents have taught and guided me. Please consider doing the same for your children.