Man, the Webernets are just awash with fun stuff today.
Study: Praying Won’t Affect Heart Patients
Snippet:
NEW YORK - Does praying for a sick person’s recovery do any good?
In the largest scientific test of its kind, heart surgery patients showed no benefit when strangers prayed for their recovery.
And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications. Doctors could only guess why.
Several scientists questioned the concept of the study.
Science “is not designed to study the supernatural,” said Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center.
The researchers emphasized that their $2.4 million study could not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another’s behalf. The study could look only for an effect from the specific prayers offered as part of the research, they said.
The study “did not move us forward or backward” in understanding the effects of prayer, said Dr. Charles Bethea, a co-author and cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. “Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect.”
Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School, co-principal investigator of the study, agreed. “We cannot come to a conclusion, except to say that by this study design, with its limitations, this is what we found,” he said.
Researchers also said they didn’t know why patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of complications than patients who only knew that such prayers were a possibility.
Maybe they became anxious by the knowledge that they’d been selected for prayers, Bethea said: “Did the patients think, ‘I am so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?’”
They spent 2.4 million dollars on this shit?? They couldda just donated the money to GifS as a good cause. We wouldda told them before they spent a single penny that they were gonna discover jack and squat.
How hilarious that the patients who knew they were being prayed for got even sicker.
That goes back to what we have said to many a drive-by theist on this site: Don’t say you’re gonna pray for me, butt-munch. I am just fine without it.
God answers all prayers. And sometimes the answer is no.
I especially liked the way the quoted ’scientists’ were trying to make excuses why we couldn’t conclude that prayer had NO effect.
“God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not,” said Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations. So in other words, prayer has NO EFFECT, even in their universe.
When will this waste of money on medical-prayer studies stop?
gravitybear Says:
When will this waste of money on medical-prayer studies stop?
When people who really believe prayer works stop believing it does, because then they’ll finally stop trying to prove it.
In other words, don’t hold your breath.
Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, said he believes intercessory prayer can influence medical outcomes, but that science is not equipped to explore it.
“Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not,” he said.
So, if we aren’t able to determine through our puny little scientific method whether prayer works because we don’t have the capabilities to measure God, then how the hell does he know that prayer can influence medical outcomes? I’m assuming that he must have some basis for his reasoning, that he must have seen some positive affects from prayer. But, according to him, we mere humans don’t have the capabilities to determine if God influences events here on earth, so how can he have any evidence for his assertion? Unless he can somehow measure the affects of prayer to know that it works, then he really can’t know that it works. And according to him, he can’t know that it works because it is impossible to determine in the first place.
So I can only assume that he believes prayer works because he wants to believe it based on his faith and has no empirical evidence to back it up whatsoever.
Note to self: Do not go to any doctor who is a member of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations!
then how the hell does he know that prayer can influence medical outcomes?
He is schizophrenic…gawd talked to him and told him personally.
So, if we aren’t able to determine through our puny little scientific method whether prayer works because we don’t have the capabilities to measure God, then how the hell does he know that prayer can influence medical outcomes?
Bruce, that reminds me of what I tell every theistic dumbass who says “GawD CAiN’t BE A prOVeN bY DA sCienCe!!”
God can’t be proven by science? That depends on your answer to this question:
True or False - god/gods produce observable effects.
If they answer true, then yes, god/gods can be observed and measured. If they answer false, then what fucking good are their sky gods in the first place??
Marcus, Sean, & Lya:
When reading the posts and responses this morning on your website, I noticed that my response yesterday was deleted and was not responded by any of you three.
I don’t know why…maybe, you have some reasons for deleting it. BTW, it was just a sort of compliment, you know. You’re so brilliant as I observed, and I just asked a very simple question which I believe you could answer very well that would eventually giving me the “enlightenment” to love “REason”.
You claimed that anything taught by any religion is outright lie, and that God’s existence is purely imaginary. You see, archeology tells us that every discovered civilization had religion in it. It is then logical to believe that religion is as old as man; that the belief of God is traceable to the first existing human beings. Does it imply the truthfulness of God’s existence?
Hey fuckhead -
The reason you probably get deleted is for double posting comments like this. See here for your answer. I was less pissed off then, as I didn’t know you had no ettiquette.
Those who *knew* got worse? Time to spread the word and tell Xians their placebo is mutating into a nocebo. All the more reason now to pray for our enemies.
Ok…another one for lion feed! This guy is a real pain in the patootie. Jared Moore…and he is not the Mormom Jared, he is a super uber xian Jared…He is a YOUTH PASTOR. He shows up on my blog from time to time just to annoy me. Check out this from a recent post from his blog:
I HAVE GOOD HEALTH, AND YET I FIND MYSELF OFTEN PRAYING, RUNNING OUT OF THINGS TO BE THANKFUL FOR. MAY GOD FORGIVE MY PUTRID ARROGANCE OF THANKLESSNESS, FOR HE IS THE ONLY REASON I HAVE MY HEALTH (Acts 17:25). May endless praises forever fall from our lips for the King has given us so much. Let us not forget the Health-giver when we lay our heads on our pillows tonight. May I never forget. I love you church.In Him,
Brother Jared
Jared Moore’s Blog
I meant Mormon…not Mormom…typo
Here is an article by fellow atheist JDHURF titled Prayer is Selfish Beggary. When I read that title I was cracking up. It’s a good post with lots of comments…including comments by the above Jared McFlanders.
****Attention GiFSers****
Do not answer Saved. Saved is a sock puppet as is Sanctified for our old xian moron, Rolie Acot.
Again, do not answer Saved- appropriate moderaters will remove the cut/paste posts.
Hey kids. I’m back.
I have a very personal interest in this concept, because twelve years ago I had cancer.
A malignant tumor the size of a ping-pong ball that had to be surgically removed (I won’t get into from where…). During the surgery, the doctors saw that the tumor may have spread, and told me to prepare myself for several sessions of chemotherapy.
Well, as much fun as that sounded like, I had different ideas. I began reading up on cancer survivors who used creative visualization, diet, and physical/mental fitness regimens to literally create a psycho-somatic environment that could stop the spread of cancer cells. I should mention here that despite the fact my excellent doctors (props to the Mayo clinic and modern medicine) did discuss mortality percentages with me, the form of cancer I had was not de-facto fatal. They encouraged me to fight.
So fight I did.
Diet, exercise, meditation, staying positively focused, and (I think most importantly) lots of fantastic marathon sex with the woman I loved at the time all helped me through what was a pretty scary time for someone whose 20th birthday was spent getting ready for cancer surgery.
My family was wonderfully supportive… HOWEVER (and here’s the rub), my parents are – my mom in particular – religious folk. Mom regularly reminded me that they and all of their friends were praying for my health. I told them not to bother, and that it kind of bugged me that she kept bringing it up. My “personal spiritual journey” was pretty heavily leaning toward no-god after eight years of religious schooling and life-long mandatory church going. But she persisted with the “power of prayer” litany. I think it helped her to deal with what must have been a terrible time for a mom.
I did not ever pray. Laying in bed after surgery, wracked with pain and puking my guts out from a reaction to the anesthesia, I found myself starting to wonder if “god” was punishing me. It was one of the worst times of my life: in a hospital, wondering about if I was going to die. But even then, I had the sense to realize it was just genetic misfortune. This was not “some terrible time” that made me “angry at god” which “turned me to atheism”. I was already on my way simply because “god” makes no sense. So, I focused my personal non-believer energies on getting better, and on the idea that I could beat cancer. I pushed myself. No self-pity, no “surrender” of letting go and letting god. I knew that it was up to me.
No prayers.
No spiritual healing bullshit - ayurveda, TT, holistic, ad nauseum.
Just self-actualized focus and personal commitment to living strong and healthy.
And plenty of heavy metal. Keeps you irregular.
When I returned to the Mayo three months after my surgery, bags packed for a week-long stay in the chemo ward, I felt a strange sense of upbeat calm. I remember as we waited for the elevator, my dad turned to me and told me he would stay with me all night if I wanted him to be there. I smiled at him and said, “You know, I don’t know that I’m going to have to stay at all.” (I was pretty full of my own shit with all the personal-power stuff I’d been doing). He smiled back and said, “We all want that. But in case you do, I just want us to have a plan.” Writing this, so many memories are flooding back. My dad was, and is, friggin’ awesome.
Well, to make this long story come to a point, I didn’t have to stay. I didn’t have cancer anymore. The doctors seemed mystified by the change in my bloodwork. All my cancer markers had fallen almost below detectable levels. They couldn’t keep me there.
We scheduled some follow-up blood tests, but that was that. The cancer was gone. I had basically decided I wasn’t going to have cancer, and it worked. Is that cool, or what?
Dad drove me back home, and the whole trip he was just amazed and thrilled for me. My mom was floored, and started to talk about how hard she had prayed – (groan).
Look… don’t get me wrong. My mom is amazing. I love her and respect her deeply. But I refuse to listen to that crap about the healing power of prayer.
First and foremost, it cheapened my personal accomplishment. It cast doubt on the fact that we human folk are capable of incredible things, and we don’t need prayers, church, god, or any of that garbage to do them. Some people may insist that we do, but I stand here – twelve years in remission – as a testament to the fact that we do not.
Often times, when I relate this story to mixed company, some theist monkey-sack chimes in with something about god having a plan for me.
I ask them what kind of shitty plan involves an atheist surviving cancer while some of the kids from religious families I met at the Mayo ended up suffering and dying from leukemia. “I want nothing to do with a god who plans for children to suffer and die while their parents live in fear and then weep with grief for years. This god of yours is a heartless asshole – if I met him on the street, I’d punch him in the fucking teeth.”
That usually shuts everybody up, which allows me to get back to the important task of telling the rest of my story in an effort to pick up girls.
These prayer-healing tests are a waste of time unless you can get an agreement from the god-squad at the get-go as to what would indicate success or failure of the experiment.
If there is no evidence that would change their minds about the “power of prayer”, then the experiments are a total waste of time and money. If statistical zero-sums or even failure aren’t accepted for what they are, then experimentation is pointless. And they should know that the millions spent on these nonsense circle-jerks could have saved real lives.
What douchebaggery.
So, Occam’s Razor review – is it more likely that supernatural intervention by an omnipotent sky-daddy motivated by en masse wishful thinking removed the cancer from me and not other clearly more-deserving believers, OR that my own effort, focus, and godless ass-kicking fury was responsible for my self-healing and that sometimes people die of diseases for no good reason?
Discuss.
Here’s some fun new info about the placebo effect -
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060331/sc_space/dontlaughjustthinkaboutit
Kudos on not only surviving cancer, MoeHammered, but kickin’ it in the nuts. My mom did the same thing to colon cancer, back when it was considered a death sentence - and is not only alive and well today to talk about it, but is a heckuva lot healthier and more in shape than I am.
MoHammered. That’s an awesome story. Thanks for posting it.
You said:
First and foremost, it cheapened my personal accomplishment.
This phrase was literally in my head just before I read it. Of course it did. We’ve discussed this cheapening effect that prayer/God’s plan has many times. It belittles us all.
And your Occam’s Razor conclusion pretty much sums it all up. For a rationalist, that is. However, if you posted your story on a theist blog, I can almost guarantee you they would either a) spout more meaningless platitudes like the monkey-sack at your party, or b) delete your message entirely.
Because as you pointed out re: this study, as long as the magical can intervene in the conversation, as long as they refuse to abide by the same rules of logic (what we call reality), there is no point.
[…] On Sean’s “Study: Praying Won’t Affect Heart Patients,” MoeHammered posted a comment recounting his experiences battling cancer as a very young man, and in describing what helped him get through to recovery, mentioned among other things, “Just self-actualized focus and personal commitment to living strong and healthy. And plenty of heavy metal.” (My emphasis) http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/03/30/study-praying-wont-affect-heart-patients/ […]
[…] Study: Praying Won’t Affect Heart Patients […]
[…] Are these the same people who are not getting better when others pray for them? […]
[…] However, once you do have some kind of heart disease, apparently praying doesn’t do shit for you. At least other people praying on your behalf, that is. […]