Thus Endeth the Lesson
15 May 2006 by Bob
I’ve always found The Book of Job to be a great dysfunctional way to completely deny everything valuable in life. (Sorry for the length.)
Job’s a good, decent guy — says extra prayers for his kids (in case they sinned when he wasn’t around) — and does everything’s he supposed to do, everything he’s told to do. Then, because of a challenge from satan, god tells satan that it’s okay for him to kill Job’s family (except, I think, his wife, although it’s not really clear), take away all of his stuff, and torture Job (without killing him, of course). Job then asks god, quite meekly, what the reason was for all of that — and we get a real feel for the loving god in ch.38ff:
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? [...] Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?…
…and so on. (You get the idea.)
Then, after getting chastised by god (”gird up thy loins like a man” is always nice to hear from a loving being), Job actually apologizes to god for questioning him (no shit):
I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Now, why did Job apologize? It can’t be because of the “explanation” god gave him, because god didn’t give him any explanation. God simply told Job that he’s god, to shut the fuck up, and that he doesn’t have to explain anything to anyone. (He also seems to justify all this by an appeal to his power — which, one should note, was never in question. Job’s question was never about that, so it’s strange that god’s tirade was about all the shit he could do.)
Job’s tortured, his family’s dead, and when he asks for an explanation (i.e., accepting, and in one sense actually losing, the challenge from satan), he gets berated. A very popular attitude and approach for xians — especially for those who wish to deny any kind of value and morality they have and embrace the nihilism that keep their minds so anesthetized. (Yes, novocain does wonders for the brain.)
So, what exactly is the moral of this story? It seems to me that apologizing to god after all that is a nice way to be prudent — i.e., not pissing off the dude who can torture and kill you — but it hardly answers the question of what Job should have done in a noble sense, i.e., a sense based on dignity, integrity, and morality. In that sense, Job’s response should have been clear: “Fuck off, asshole. You’re wrong.”
15 May 2006, on 4:00 pm
“what exactly is the moral of this story?”
Have faith. It’s another indoctrinating story about how faith in gawd will bring great things even through great pain. Nevermind that abusive parent image we get of gawd in this story. That’s evidently the type of gawd they want.
15 May 2006, on 4:05 pm
Good post, Bob. It seems to me that catholics have a rather sensible (all things considered) approach to interpreting Job’s story (from the point of view of symbolism, maybe?) but I can’t for the life of me remember it.
Taken literally, as the fundies do everything in the bible, it’s always been horrifying to me and god as depicted in it seems supremely insensitive to say the least: his payment to Job after everything he’s put the poor guy through (for a bet, no less, just like a formula teen movie!) includes *children to replace those he lost* (can’t remember if he replaces the wife, too)! “Yeah, I know, I slaughtered all your first children, but here’s another set to help you forget them and remember that I really do love you after all.”
15 May 2006, on 4:34 pm
I think the moral of the story is what an insecure prick God is. Satan, by contrast, is rather reasonable.
“Hey God, this guy’s well off. Don’t you think that has something to do with his faith? I’m just saying, it’s easy to have faith when you’re well taken care of.”
15 May 2006, on 5:00 pm
What’s the matter, aren’t you God-fearin’?? You should be, cuz he is a nasty, capricious sumbitch. Don’t question it. Just love him in return.
15 May 2006, on 5:01 pm
Have faith. It’s another indoctrinating story about how faith in gawd will bring great things even through great pain. Nevermind that abusive parent image we get of gawd in this story. That’s evidently the type of gawd they want.
That’s what I was always told about the story (i.e., before I read it): when bad things happen, just have faith in god and everything will turn out okay.
What they forgot to mention, of course, is that the object of your faith is actually the cause of the shit that happens to you in the first place. And that part makes it so dysfunctional. Some kind of weird child abuse cycle — one that ultimately depends on some fucking-with-you-now-for-no-reason-but-will-give-you-more-stuff-later attitude. That’s supposed to bring comfort to people? That’s like me slightly poisoning my kid, but then giving him presents later on to make up for it.
How psychotic and strange. Oh wait, this is xianity. Nevermind.
15 May 2006, on 5:02 pm
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: “He beats me because he loves me.”
15 May 2006, on 5:05 pm
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: “He beats me because he loves me.”
And that, xians, is why you need medication. “But, no, you don’t understand: we all deserve this punishment in some way.” Yes, we’ll up the dosage right away.
15 May 2006, on 5:15 pm
“I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: “He beats me because he loves me.”
And that, xians, is why you need medication. “But, no, you don’t understand: we all deserve this punishment in some way.” Yes, we’ll up the dosage right away.”
Damn that was one expensive apple. But it’s our fault…
15 May 2006, on 5:46 pm
Thanks for summarzing the story of Job, it saves me the trouble of having to read it myself!
I suppose that if Job’s family went to heaven, then God did them a favor. Ah, but Job is old testament isn’t it? So heaven hasn’t opened for business yet at this point.
I have known some xians to use this argument, that generally when God kills, if the victims end up in heaven, then it can’t really be considered a bad thing.
15 May 2006, on 7:16 pm
It’s always amusing to watch Christians reinterpret the sick bits of the old testament:
‘No, it doesn’t mean what it actually says, it means this load of crap that I just pulled out my ass.’
There’s a form of insanity there.
15 May 2006, on 8:07 pm
It hurts so good I can’t help myself. Hit me again…. HARDER.
Yep I think I’m getting the hang of this xian business.
16 May 2006, on 7:05 am
Or my personal favorite: “You just didn’t understand the story - MY pastor says it really means x”
Since they can’t form a thought without turning to someone else, they expect we can’t and so immediately tell us we’re wrong so they can implant their arbitrary (and most likely contradictory) version of it.
It’s sad that people who believe can’t agree and yet they still think they can tell us we’re wrong about it.
(pssst hey bigot trolls, shoo.)
16 May 2006, on 8:30 am
I personally love Heinlein’s take on this bibble story - if you haven’t read it, I suggest picking up Job: A Comedy of Justice.
16 May 2006, on 10:27 am
I still love the small cartoon done by Evan Dorkin - of the LORD himself as a glove puppet - “Howdy Howdy! I am Jehovah! Love me or I will flood the world”.
16 May 2006, on 10:54 am
Moral of the story?
Right and wrong are what God says they are. What do you mean you don’t think so? Who made you smarter than God?
16 May 2006, on 12:21 pm
Big Daddy, Evan Dorkin is great!
16 May 2006, on 12:35 pm
I think it’s funny what you can read into this story that contradicts every aspect of xian adjectives in gawd, he’s all loving, so why does he kill those who are closest to job. He’s all knowing, but why doesn’t he know that job as faith to justify the good. I think the biggest one is idea that the devil (gods creation) can plant a seed of doubt into his mind, which means if the devil can manipulate god, then god is as flawed as humans.
16 May 2006, on 12:49 pm
Ian, the other really interesting part of the Job story is that there is nothing particularly evil about Satan. He’s sitting there having a conversation with gawd, brings up some good points, and gawd says “go try out your theories.” It’s almost like they’re working together…
16 May 2006, on 12:56 pm
Now, why did Job apologize? It can’t be because of the “explanation” god gave him, because god didn’t give him any explanation. God simply told Job that he’s god, to shut the fuck up, and that he doesn’t have to explain anything to anyone.
Am I the only one who noticed that this is the same thing GW Bush does? He’s not going to apologize for starting a baseless war, spying on innocent citizens or leaving NOLA to drown… nope, he’s the decider and its just fine cuz he says it is, and he’s above the laws of mere mortal men…. ** gags at the thought of GWB in charge of Earth as he’s screwed up the USA quite enough **
16 May 2006, on 1:46 pm
Right and wrong are what God says they are.
Exactly. God’s whim, writ large. Exit every human value you can think of, including killing someone’s family to teach that someone a lesson, and torturing the innocent. And they wonder why we think they’re nihilists…
What do you mean you don’t think so? Who made you smarter than God?
Yeah, I know. What was I thinking? Now that I’ve thought about it, it all makes sense…
16 May 2006, on 5:15 pm
Great post.
The story of Job is yet another example of a bible story to which I would NEVER expose a child. It’s a horrible scary story! God is a psychotically unpredictable torturer who puts his own reputation–with an entity he supposedly already defeated–ahead of the welfare of his people. What does he care what satan thinks? It just makes no sense.
Not that it’s the only babble story that makes no sense, but it has always seemed particularly egregious to me in its sadism. Cheers.
16 May 2006, on 8:46 pm
C’mon, this story is of the same age as Homer’s Odessy and Aesop’s stuff, if not older. Religion is the invention of man, and the bible reflects the stage of development of literature when the particular book was written; in this case, dirt old. Of course humans assigned powers to gods, stumps, animals, star structures, whatever they could to ease the fear of the unknown…and mainly to ease the fear of death, and the cessation of their little bit of consciousness. Why try to deny ignorant people of the escape of religion? Do you know how many people would go mad, contemplating the idea that they aren’t being followed, second by second, and that their existance will one day come to an end? Let them have these thoughts…it’s cheaper than valium…
17 May 2006, on 3:20 am
“Why try to deny ignorant people of the escape of religion?”
The issue at hand is not so much denying people their substitute for valium as much as it is getting them to quit pushing that substitute down our collective throat. In other words, their myths or fables become excuses for killing people, for denying people equal rights, for standing in the way of discoveries which could help people, etc. If religion was nothing more than a private exercise of beliefs, as it is for many, I feel I can safely say that almost none of us on here would have any problem with it whatsoever. The problem is and always has been that religious people generally are not satisfied merely believing; they want others to believe just like they do and when others don’t, conflict generally arises.
17 May 2006, on 9:11 am
The “well, ignorant people need this as a crutch” argument is persuasive only to a point. Yes, as KR says, our primary hope at this point in time, as atheists stuck in a world that we feel should have evolved beyond superstition by now, is to contain it to private life. Keep it out of my government, my public schools, my work place, that usual argument…
But atheist author Sam Harris thinks we should, we have to eventually move beyond that. He says even moderate belief is hurting humanity:
17 May 2006, on 9:29 am
“atheist author Sam Harris thinks we should, we have to eventually move beyond that. He says even moderate belief is hurting humanity:”
And I completely agree. Moderate beliefs give justification and safe haven, even if unintentionally, to extreme beliefs. The idea of “tolerance” does too. There are certain beliefs that CANNOT be tolerated if we are interested in self-perservation as a species.
For anyone that hasn’t already, read this book. It’s a must for atheists, imo.
17 May 2006, on 10:58 am
I’ll have to check that book out.
18 May 2006, on 12:51 am
You should not worry about Christianity; it’s teeth were pulled effectively centuries ago, during the reformation. The King Kong of religions today is the Islamic faith. Where else can you find teenagers strapping on suicide bombs in an effort to please god, and get laid? If Islam is allowed to continue unabated, we may one day see religion shoved down our throats in the form of bombs, missles, or worse. The war in the middle east is just the warmup for what we’re going to face. Whether you like it or not, someone’s god is going to get you…and they are willing to die to make you believe it.
18 May 2006, on 1:21 am
Serr: They’re ALL dangerous… And are all the enemies of reason… And they aren’t getting me or my loved ones without a fight.
We have been brainwashed to ignore one type of terrorism while being horrified by another. I am sick of all of it. What do I mean? I mean I am sick to death of people who will brainwash young men to blow themselves up in the name of Allah… Killing dozens at a time. But why aren’t we all equally sick to death of people who brainwash whole armies to kill far more people in the name of Christ? You don’t think that’s going on?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/17/wboyk17.xml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/60minutes/main524268.shtml
http://www.christiansoldiers.org/
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/04/15/in_touch/index.html
http://www.myspace.com/godblessourmilitary
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=heavenlycreat.17934334
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0736916660/104-5449380-8066334?v=glance&n=283155
http://cgi.ebay.com/USMC-GOD-COUNTRY-CORPS-MILITARY-BALL-CAP_W0QQitemZ6568388341QQcategoryZ586QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.adoptasoldierministries.org/
It goes on and on. Millions of Americans believe the “American soldier” is fighting in the name of the Christian god (and they have a helluva lot of firepower). Any Marine will tell you that during boot camp on Paris Island, and thereafter, everyone visits chapel at least once a week. The chaplain speakes Christo-speak. I have seen video tapes of it. Ain’t exactly a Jewish service. And you are ostracized if you don’t play along. After all, how many Muslim chaplains does the U.S. military have? And what happens to those that are?
The “Top Gun” school in the Navy, story has it, expects you to babble gawd speak all the time both to move up in the ranks and to show your flight buddies that you are there with them and facing the lord together.
Live for a day in Baghdad and then tell me which religion you are most afraid of.
Fuck them all. We need to fight all of it. And we must never stop.
18 May 2006, on 2:29 am
I sometimes fantasise about God speaking to me and telling me that everything that happened in the Bible is literal truth.
And me consequently telling him to go fuck himself.
18 May 2006, on 4:22 pm
Sean said:
“Any Marine will tell you that during boot camp on Paris Island, and thereafter, everyone visits chapel at least once a week.”
It has been a few years since I went through boot camp, Navy not Marine boot camp. I was never pushed into going to the chapel on Sundays. We would get a couple of hours on Sunday for this specific reason if one did not go one had to stay in the barracks. I thought and still think that my two hours were better spent by polishing my boots, cleaning my space, getting my uniforms ready, and taking a M-16 apart.
As for the idiots at Top Gun screw them into some wet concrete then watch it dry. I personally have not met a fighter pilot I have liked even as a kid, my dad was in the Navy on aircraft carriers and then squadrons, I could see that most of them were worthless and arogant.
18 May 2006, on 5:30 pm
That’s interesting, P.C., because I have heard fairly recently that there is quite a bit of social pressure. That the military in general is getting more and more Xian in its culture.
19 May 2006, on 3:29 pm
Sean I would not doubt the xianation of the military now days but I did not go through it. I went through boot camp in 1996 and got out in May 2001 so a lot can happen. If I were to go back in, and the recuiters are hounding me I would be the exact same way and my dogtags would read Name: Tyson Number:xxx-xx-xxxx Blood Type:Apos Religion: Athiest. My first set of dogtags had Religion:None because I did not know at the time athiest could be put on them.
I spent five years in the Seabees and I only went to a chapel once. I went there because some of the people that worked there could not leave to participate in the command drug sweep. We went to them. It is very funny if you think aboutit, the only thing I have ever done in a Navy chapel is watch people pee into cups.
18 January 2008, on 4:17 pm
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