Ignorance As Sleeve Accessory
16 June 2006 by Raindogzilla
A couple things.
A school superintendent’s decision to bar a second-grade girl from singing “Awesome God” in an after-school talent show is developing into an important showdown over the role of religious speech in public elementary schools.
The issue arose in May 2005 when an 8-year-old student in Frenchtown, N.J., was told that the song she’d selected to perform in the show was too religious…”
snip
“This is tolerance and political correctness gone awry,” says Maryann Turton, the girl’s mother. “This is a much bigger picture than just our daughter in our little town. It is going on everywhere…”
And second,
“Camille Pontillo, the principal of Park Springs Elementary in Coral Springs, Florida, needs to learn a lesson of her own. Pontillo’s school is having a talent show, but Pontillo won’t allow 10-year-old Molly Shoul to sing Pink’s new song, “Dear Mr. President.” Pontillo doesn’t think students should sing songs that are “too political.”
Molly’s mother nails it:
“If this was a student singing a pro-administration song, no one would quibble with it,” Shoul said. “The principal is just running scared and doesn’t want to upset any parents.”
Schools should encourage political debate, even when the debaters are in grade school.
“It’s as if the principal’s worst nightmare is for intellectual debate and controversy to break out in a classroom,” [Howard] Simon said…”
Pink’s lyrics are here.
So, yeah, two cases of censorship. The former because it violates the separation of Church and State- though since the program was after school, I suppose it’s debatable, and the second, most probably, a simple case of the principal running scared of the FUCKTARD parents who would surely vent over a song disparaging good King George.
IMNSHO, however, I think the ban, in both cases, is wrong. No, no, hear me out. Sure, the first is probably Constitutional protection, while the second is censorship plain and simple, but, I’m suggesting that wall of Separation ought to be brought down. That’s right. Give them exactly what they wish for, let them wear their insanity on their sleeves wherever and whenever they please, let their noxious blend of judgment and intolerance stand up under the light and be scrutinized. Hell, let them have a go at governing- and watch them blow the budget on legislated morality while the machinery of good government and the nation’s infrastructure quietly rusts. Oh, wait, that’s already happening! Well, apparently, they need to go further yet before the moderate- who, contrary to rumor, are not actually mute- finally get their collective back up and say ” “That’s all I can stands and I can’t stands no more!”
Plus, it’s always fun to look around when a group of people are praying and scope the ones who are rolling their eyes, taking a nap, or making devil horns back at you.
16 June 2006, on 11:49 am
RDZ, I agree with you. The argument can and should be made that both songs are being performed as artistic expressions in extra-curricular activities. It would be a lot different if teachers were making their elementary school classes sing these songs or if the school’s administration was leading a sing along of “Awesome Gawd.” That said, I see no harm in letting either kid sing their one song at a talent show.
16 June 2006, on 1:50 pm
I’m a huge advocate of separation of church and state, but a student deciding to sing a religious song at school is not the state’s doing. I’d say that’s covered under freedom of speech. I agree with King Retard that it’s a whole other story if the school is promoting or mandating it.
In fact, separation of church and state would mandate the the school stay out of it, because prohibiting it is effectively dabbling in the religion of the student.
16 June 2006, on 2:11 pm
2nd linky no worky.
16 June 2006, on 2:47 pm
Not that I would seriously compare the “gospel music” drivel to Mozart but… if we follow the logic that any song that possibly is “religious” in nature then we’re going to have to throw out some of the most gorgeous music ever written such as Mozart’s Requiem Mass. Not that a kid is going to be singing that – but it is used in colleges and some of the solos for vocal competitions in public schools at the high school or advanced arts level.
Sometimes we just need to relax a little. The song is crap and if I were there I’d probably have to get up and leave – not because of the religious issue but because the music itself would make me want to puke.
As for #2 – that’s just plain stupid and there should be no limitation on strictly political speech such as that.
16 June 2006, on 4:33 pm
King Retard adn RR are absolutely correct-the student has the absolute right to profess their religion, whether in school or out, and should absolutely be allowed to sing a religious song if they so desire. It’s completely different than the school sponsoring a program with religious content. Would you ban a student from a talent show if they wanted to read a poem about not believing in gods?
16 June 2006, on 6:40 pm
I want the FUCKTARDS to have their way- much as the Republicans have had theirs for the last six years or so. I think most folks- even folks that voted for the morons in the first place- now see the rampant corruption and incompetence brought to us by the GOP. As an ardent supporter of Jefferson’s “Wall of Separation”, I can’t help but think it may need to be razed- and rebuilt with the bad grammar and single syllables necessary for the fundies to get the point. Then again, they’ve convinced themselves that this country was founded FUCKTARD with no evidence at all. As to the two cases, their both ridiculous censorship though the former has at least good intent behind it. Sorry about the link, try this; That’s all I can stands cause I can’t stands no more!
16 June 2006, on 7:03 pm
Incidentally, the picture was in no way meant as misogynistic, just the most attractive picture of a ballgag I could find.
16 June 2006, on 7:32 pm
RDZ: fixed yer link in the post, bro’ — despite the fact that that ballgag pic was making it look like I was browsing porn at work!
And I thought I used to be bad!
16 June 2006, on 7:57 pm
It’s too bad that the super and principal are such gutless weiners they should both be terminated. Freedom of speech should always prevail. If they don’t like the god part of a 7 year olds song then maybe they need to grow up and or shut the fu** up. But they are not fit to lead a school of any kind.
16 June 2006, on 9:22 pm
I disagree with you all on this one.
Keep Gawd and any of his music out of schools.
Hey how about teaching the three R’s instead of some stupid talent show for the incredibly bad performers.
How would this be, have her sing Pinks song and then have to listen to some administration recital on how well the war in Iraq is going? Mission accomplished, stay the course, We know exactly where WMD’s are, Fighting the terrorists over there and the best for last— We need to spread democracy all around the world because it is our Gawd given responsibilty.
16 June 2006, on 10:02 pm
Jimmer, 10 points for use of the word “weiners.” We don’t hear that word enough anymore.
16 June 2006, on 11:26 pm
Jimmer and K.R., wouldn’t a “gutless weiner” be physically impossible considering the ingredients therein?
17 June 2006, on 12:40 am
Looking at this from another point of view, it’s a sticky situation. Children of grade school age are only mouthpieces for the parents and things can get really carried away. I have seen it happen in our district. (I am a substitute teacher for our county.) This is why in my opinion that it is the responsibility of school administrators to keep these programs at the grade school level as neutral as possible. It irritates me when parents use their young children to promote their own beliefs (religious or otherwise) when the child usually has little understanding of those beliefs. It’s different at the high school level when students are forming their own opinions and have a greater understanding of things.
17 June 2006, on 12:40 am
KR
thanks
RDZ
Man do I have to explain everything to ya.LOL
Raindog you must see this I\’ll let you in on a little secret. But be prepared your brain may experience cognitive problems afterwards. The pain will not be permanent.
Connie Chung says goodbye.
17 June 2006, on 9:41 am
jimmer,
Man, what a way to start the day. Listening to Connie grunt as she tried to lever herself off the piano, holy fucking shit! Thanks man, that was awesome.
17 June 2006, on 11:13 am
Stardust: “out of the mouths of babes” has always seemed off-base to me. Where do “babes” get their ideas from? Usually, a precocious statement from a child can be traced directly back to an adult. And we call it wisdom because it came from the mouth of an innocent… When in fact some adult with an agenda has taught that kid what to say.
17 June 2006, on 11:16 am
P.S.: This goes back to all of our previous discussions on free speech, of course. I always say I am an absolutist. But then I realize I am not an absolutist about anything else.
We all know the old arguments… There are limits to free speech and in extreme situations there should be: You can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theater.
The goal is always to get the parties together, have them make their arguments, and try to decide in some democratic manner whether the theater is indeed crowded and whether someone is indeed yelling “fire.”
17 June 2006, on 11:58 am
Sean – Because our school district allowed a group of kids to sing Lee Greenwood’s song “God Bless the USA” in an evening school program about 14-15 years ago, it has evolved into a “tradition” to make everyone stand and sing it at every school event and at most of the schools in our village district and even community events. At the end, many shout “Amen!” Recently, I have been watching our local cable channel of the school programs that are performed during school hours and the number of gawd-related songs and political/military-type songs are mind boggling! Even the high school marching band’s theme song is “Battle Hymn of the Republic”.
17 June 2006, on 12:25 pm
In addition to above comment #18: My husband just reminded me how the grade schools in our community play “Proud to be an American…Gawd Bless the USA” EVERY MORNING over the loudspeakers in the schools after kids say the pledge to the flag and one nation under gawd, etc. I forgot about that. All this stemming from allowing one little Gawd song in a school program.
17 June 2006, on 1:42 pm
Wow!,…
Thanks(?) to Jimmer for the ‘Chung’ link!…
Yeah, Raindog; after listening to Connie, I think maybe I should go BACK to bed…and get up again to restart the day!
Will it be like the commercial with the dog who hears the ‘Meow Mix’ song being sung by a cat in a passing car, commenting: “Oh great!…now I’ll be hearing that in my head, all day long!”
So much for any semblance of ‘Perfect’ Pitch; or even good ‘Relative’ Pitch…["...and keep the relatives out of it!" (Groucho)] on that embarrassing display of bad taste. Was she drunk, or stoned…or both? Even the pianist seemed to be pantomiming! [Was he even trying to accompany her?...'Air' piano?]
I’m afraid, even Perfect pitch wouldn’t have helped….[Pianist's thoughts?]: “Uh, oh…she changed key…AGAIN!…what time signature is she in now?…Tempo change?…Shit!…forget ’swinging’!….’Get the hook!’…She should’ve just done a strip tease!…NO?…Who booked this gig, anyway?…How did they get MY number?…WHY am I here?…I don’t even KNOW this broad!…Call Maury!,…Quick!”
The whole shtick reminds ME of the typical person wanting to sing with the band [I've played with many!]. People with REAL talent usually resist ‘thrusting’ themselves on the band…or the audience. [What!...keep a sword handy for them to 'thrust' on?]
Or,…maybe book Connie to do that shtick…however,…singing ‘Amazing (Dis)Grace’ ["AAaagh!"]…in an after school recital? OK,..Sorry!
Seriously, folks:
As to the main theme here; I think we need to hold Administrators responsible for doing their basic job; which includes — maintaining the ‘Separation of Church & State’ principle. We ARE talking about Public Educational institutions, which SHOULD be the place for raising the awareness in both parents, AND students, as to the core nature of a SECULAR Democracy.
[Alas, however,...'Proper Awareness' seems to be lacking!]
Now,…perhaps, MORE importantly in all this:….
“WHO WANTS TO BE AN OSCAR MEYER WEINER?”
[Do I hear Sean whistling,...or singing?]
17 June 2006, on 11:53 pm
I disagreed with the first part before I even read the second part.
Neither kid is being required to sing these songs. This shouldnt even be an issue for either side of the fence.
18 June 2006, on 12:38 am
First of all, fuck Lee Greenwood. He was the origin of many nightmares when I worked in the Radio bizz…In Guymon, Oklahoma! The belt buckle of the Bible Belt!
Yee fucking HA!
Hell, I even produced a Youth Ministry show there, complete with the “counterbalance” to The Beastie Boys, DC Talk.
It was the same six fucking chords the Beasties used. But I digress.
Why? Because the YEAR was important. 1995.
It was McVeigh’s year. The year that “terruh” was a political reality in America since…
HA! TRICK QUESTION!
But yeah, I was a reporter in this quasi desert podunk town that residees in the Okie panhandle. 40 miles from the mot ill-named city in America: Liberal, Kansas!!) I saw the spawning of this old-yet-new political perversity. It was when Americans were desensitized to religiously-based violence.
THe Murrah building was pavement for 9-11.
19 June 2006, on 3:26 pm
Hmmm…good points, everyone. Usually I side with Sean on absolute freedom of speech, but I also see what Star’s pointing out.
It seems to me that the argument for allowing both songs is strong (extracurricular, freedom of religion/speech/expression), but at the same time, extracurricular or not, they’re still public school programs and therefore still under the aegis of the government, a fact that automatically brings up the separation of church and state caveat. Perhaps the schools could have organized fair debates with both sides weighing in and left the inclusion or exclusion of the songs up to votes at the conclusions of the debates? Sort of democracy-in-action exercises for the benefit of administration, faculty, staff, students, and parents alike?
Or perhaps these are simply too low grades to be having these discussions in and everyone should bow to the principals’ decisions as leaders of the schools, whether they agree with them or not?
19 June 2006, on 4:11 pm
Or perhaps these are simply too low grades to be having these discussions in and everyone should bow to the principals’ decisions as leaders of the schools, whether they agree with them or not?
The problem with that is that the principal would have to be unbiased. The reason we have “Gawd Bless the USA” as the morning liturgy in our town’s schools is because the principal at the school it started in, and the superintendent of schools are both fundies.
Whatever happened to songs like “Down By the Bay, Where the Watermelon’s Grow” or “The More We Get Together”, and all those light-hearted songs of childhood? Whatever happened to Raffi? What happened to the days when a child could innocently choose a song to sing and not have all this interference by adults to fuck it all up? If a kid would choose Jeebus Loves Me and just have people applaud and move on and not turn it into the “town anthem”, then there would not be a problem.
Maybe people need to let kids be kids and quit using them as mouthpieces for their adult agenda. It’s not only parents who promote certain agenda through the kids, the teachers and school administrators do it, too. I have seen little kids required to make “VOTE FOR KIDS…VOTE YES FOR NEW SCHOOLS!” signs and posters in what are disquised as “art classes.” I have seen kids in the neighborhood duke it out after one kid told another kid that his parents hates kids because they were not voting for the new school referendum…when most of these little kids don’t know what the hell a referendum is.