Ramen, Pastor Boyd!
30 July 2006 by Raindogzilla
This New York Times article gave me a real shot in the arm, hope-wise.
“MAPLEWOOD, Minn. — Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing — and the church’s — to conservative political candidates and causes.
The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?
After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.
“When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,” Mr. Boyd preached. “When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.”
snip.
The response from his congregation at Woodland Hills Church here in suburban St. Paul — packed mostly with politically and theologically conservative, middle-class evangelicals — was passionate. Some members walked out of a sermon and never returned. By the time the dust had settled, Woodland Hills, which Mr. Boyd founded in 1992, had lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members.
snip.
“Sermons like Mr. Boyd’s are hardly typical in today’s evangelical churches. But the upheaval at Woodland Hills is an example of the internal debates now going on in some evangelical colleges, magazines and churches. A common concern is that the Christian message is being compromised by the tendency to tie evangelical Christianity to the Republican Party and American nationalism, especially through the war in Iraq.
At least six books on this theme have been published recently, some by Christian publishing houses. Randall Balmer, a religion professor at Barnard College and an evangelical, has written “Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America — an Evangelical’s Lament.”
And Mr. Boyd has a new book out, “The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church,” which is based on his sermons.
“There is a lot of discontent brewing,” said Brian D. McLaren, the founding pastor at Cedar Ridge Community Church in Gaithersburg, Md., and a leader in the evangelical movement known as the “emerging church,” which is at the forefront of challenging the more politicized evangelical establishment.
“More and more people are saying this has gone too far — the dominance of the evangelical identity by the religious right,” Mr. McLaren said. “You cannot say the word ‘Jesus’ in 2006 without having an awful lot of baggage going along with it. You can’t say the word ‘Christian,’ and you certainly can’t say the word ‘evangelical’ without it now raising connotations and a certain cringe factor in people.
“Because people think, ‘Oh no, what is going to come next is homosexual bashing, or pro-war rhetoric, or complaining about ‘activist judges.’ ”
snip
“In his six sermons, Mr. Boyd laid out a broad argument that the role of Christians was not to seek “power over” others — by controlling governments, passing legislation or fighting wars. Christians should instead seek to have “power under” others — “winning people’s hearts” by sacrificing for those in need, as Jesus did, Mr. Boyd said.
“America wasn’t founded as a theocracy,” he said. “America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn’t bloody and barbaric. That’s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.
“I am sorry to tell you,” he continued, “that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.”
Mr. Boyd lambasted the “hypocrisy and pettiness” of Christians who focus on “sexual issues” like homosexuality, abortion or Janet Jackson’s breast-revealing performance at the Super Bowl halftime show. He said Christians these days were constantly outraged about sex and perceived violations of their rights to display their faith in public.
“Those are the two buttons to push if you want to get Christians to act,” he said. “And those are the two buttons Jesus never pushed.”
This guy came forward right in the middle of a fundraising campaign- costing himself and his church roughly 3 million. I think that takes a good bit of courage and conviction. At a Q&A session to do some ’splainin’ to the remaining congregants;
“One woman asked: “So why NOT us? If we contain the wisdom and grace and love and creativity of Jesus, why shouldn’t we be the ones involved in politics and setting laws?”
Mr. Boyd responded: “I don’t think there’s a particular angle we have on society that others lack. All good, decent people want good and order and justice. Just don’t slap the label ‘Christian’ on it.”
Well said, Pastor Boyd.
30 July 2006, on 2:23 am
“In his six sermons, Mr. Boyd laid out a broad argument that the role of Christians was not to seek “power over” others — by controlling governments, passing legislation or fighting wars. Christians should instead seek to have “power under” others — “winning people’s hearts” by sacrificing for those in need, as Jesus did, Mr. Boyd said.
“America wasn’t founded as a theocracy,” he said. “America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn’t bloody and barbaric. That’s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.
CAN I GET A FUCK RAMMELUJAH FOR PASTOR BOYD OR WHAT???
It’s about fucking time somebody of faith started saying this.
I don’t need his Jeebus, but I’ll take his message and run with it.
30 July 2006, on 2:30 am
Just reminds us who specifically we should be pissed at. Anyone who tries to force bullshit on us and control our lives. If you really think about it, would this site exist if it weren’t for assholes trying to force shit on us? I mean, shit, this site would be little more than a mean spirited hate site if that kind of shit didn’t go on. That and the fucking charlatans who fuck people over with empty promises.
I mean think about it, would any of us care if religion’s only problem was it’s inconsistency with logic and evidence? But alas, it’s a somewhat sad fact that logical and evidential inconsistency tends to create problems when dealing with reality. Attempting to shove square pegs through round holes is bound to fail or screw things up.
30 July 2006, on 2:36 am
This guy just explained FOR me why I refuse to vote each season.
That, and the fact that I don’t believe that our votes really mean worth crap.. But that’s another whole site altogether..
Yeah, I’ll happily admit to being a “fundie”, but it could be worse; I could be a politician as well!
(shudders at the thought)
I’m gonna have nightmares now.
30 July 2006, on 10:16 am
Definite Ramen to that. I have no problem with Christian or anybody else if they don’t try to force their beliefs and their way of life on me. (I happen to believe I lead a very good way of life thank you very much!)
It’s people like him who stand a chance of saving America from the religious right. I hope people listen to him!
30 July 2006, on 10:55 am
Hey, Raindog, nice pickup. It’s like an overview of my perspective, particularly including Brian Mclaren in the struggle. His writings, more that anyone else’s, have shaped the present state of my faith. The good news is obvious- a church that will help us shrug off and fight the right, and the bad news is that the 1,000 who left will just migrate to someone else who enables their hate and power-mongering.
As Sean said: RAMMELUJAH!
30 July 2006, on 10:58 am
MJMartin sez:
I have no problem with Christian or anybody else if they don’t try to force their beliefs and their way of life on me.
Excuse the cynicism, but I’ll believe it when I see it. That is, after all, the missionary’s modus opperandi. They need to recruit all the time, especially the evangelical sects. It’s the business they’re in.
There’s a saying the unions use: Organize or Die! They stole it from the missionaries. In other words, they’ll never leave us alone, but I’ll settle for the fundies respecting the 1st Amendment.
Don’t get me wrong, this is good news. However, I wonder how long he’ll be able to keep his job if he’s losing 20% of his parishioners. His only advantadge is that he’s in Minnesota. I doubt he would be able to stick around if it were any other state, and I have serious doubts about his present position. He will be attacked by his “peers”. Mark my words.
And now, for your reading pleasure, an unprovoked rip:
Cieje3 sez:
Yeah, I’ll happily admit to being a “fundie”, but it could be worse; I could be a politician as well!
Actually, that would be a step up for you. Go back to NintendoLand. I mean, no wonder you’re a suicidal, anti social rapture freak! If you got your head out of your ass (which is apparently where you plug your video games in at a well) you might actually get a clue.
Signed,
Evolve or fuck off!
30 July 2006, on 11:31 am
Rat, they didn’t include numbers but, later in the article, it was implied that they were making up the loss…
“In the end, those who left tended to be white, middle-class suburbanites, church staff members said. In their place, the church has added more members who live in the surrounding community — African-Americans, Hispanics and Hmong immigrants from Laos.”
Why does it, in the Xian sector anyway, seem to take white folks to really get a good hate on? And is that in any way tied to the fact that most serial killers tend to be white?
Cieje, I’m not sure if you’re with this guy or against but he’s definitely not saying folks shouldn’t vote and neither am I. Honestly, any eligible American that treats their right- their duty- to vote so cavalierly is a pitiful excuse for a citizen.
Rock the Vote, man.
30 July 2006, on 11:42 am
Honestly, any eligible American that treats their right- their duty- to vote so cavalierly is a pitiful excuse for a citizen.
Ramen RDZ!
30 July 2006, on 11:52 am
RainDog sez:
Why does it, in the Xian sector anyway, seem to take white folks to really get a good hate on?
That is, my friend, the power of white priveledge rearing its’ ugly head. It’s about control, and the fear of losing it. I mean, how many times have we seen thi scenario play out in American History? The Civil War, the eradication of Native Americans, the KKK, the Drug War, and now abortion, gay marriage, flag burning and the War on Terruh.
So, you may be right about its’ relation to serial killers. There’s definitely some power issues there!
30 July 2006, on 2:56 pm
Mr Boyd has definitely recognized the truth about America’s foundations. He should be applauded for understanding the value of the separation of church and state, and attempting to lead his congregation away from more obnoxious forms of political activism.
However, he still teaches his willing listeners “the light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ” and “when you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.” He is educating people to base their voting decisions on a delusion. This can’t be good.
He’s still trying to win people over–“Christians should instead seek to have ‘power under’ others — ‘winning people’s hearts’.” Still power, just more subtle and less forthright.
It always leads right back to the same place–prayer in the schools (because they’re harming no one), creation in the classroom (because they deserve to have their theories too) or the ten commandments in front of a court house (because afterall it’s what everyone agrees are good principles).
30 July 2006, on 7:00 pm
Lynda, in the “power under” example, Boyd phrases it as setting the example for others and not by trying to shove it down their throats. And, while I’m with you that any mention of religion, any dependence on the supernatural, is a bad thing, I think Boyd’s way is the way it’s gonna have to happen. It’s not like one day all the fundies are gonna wake up and be like “Oh, shit, what was I thinking” and the religion problem will be solved. I mean, my own withdrawal from religion was a gradual one- granted it was from age 8 to, say, 12 or so, and I’d venture to guess that most folks here who were steeped in the shit to start with had no Damascus Road coversions. Hell, I’d like to bulldoze every single church, mosque, and synagogue or, better yet, send them off into space full to bursting but it’s just not feasible(and I’m much to pretty for jail:mrgreen:)
We need to encourage the Boyd’s of the world if only out of political expedience. Once we’ve removed the fundies’ power base from office, then, and only then, can we make inroads into the congregations. Incidentally, Boyd is carefully teaching his flock not to vote based on the typical fundie issues and to do so on a more christlike basis. Yes, christ, but his purported teachings are something I could live with the religious of today patterning themselves after. One step at a time.
30 July 2006, on 7:01 pm
Sean, if you’re gonna have me “chewing my cud”, you may as well make it “you ruminate”
31 July 2006, on 12:18 am
I believe the Church should stay out of politics, as this guy has said. The Church should really only witness to those who have never heard of the word rather than waste time on those who stubornly refuse it. As far as sexual immorality goes, he should still state clear taboos:
Homosexual sex
Premaritual sex
Promiscuous sex
Adultry
The Church has no need to go into things such a ’same-sex marriage’ though.
31 July 2006, on 12:52 am
Petersen: what’s “clear” about these taboos besides the fact that you have a wrinkled old rag that says it is so?
Bonobos and dolphins have homosexual sex all the time. Doesn’t seem to hurt them any.
Interestingly, the closer you get to humanity genetically, the more homosexual behavior you witness.
If Man is made in Gawd’s image, I think Gawd is at least a 3 on the Kinsey Scale, don’t you?
31 July 2006, on 1:02 am
“Homosexual sex
Premaritual sex
Promiscuous sex
Adultry”
Petersen, you forgot:
Sex with Petersen
but I guess that’s not really an issue, is it?
31 July 2006, on 1:13 am
Petersen, you forgot:
Sex with Petersen
but I guess that’s not really an issue, is it?
RDZ, I was going to bring that point up but couldn’t figure out how to word it.
31 July 2006, on 1:14 am
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not christian. I care not about what homosexuals do for fun. I know, however, that christianity has taboos agaisnt ‘laying with another man as he would with a woman’. I hope that answers your question.
31 July 2006, on 1:43 am
christianity has taboos agaisnt ‘laying with another man as he would with a woman’
No shit Sherlock. Then if you are not a xian, why are you talking like you are one?
31 July 2006, on 9:39 am
“No shit Sherlock. Then if you are not a xian, why are you talking like you are one?”
Star, he needs all the help he can get repressing his own latency while enjoying his “ex-gay” lifestyle with his “ex-lesbian” wife, Butch.
31 July 2006, on 11:11 am
Maybe Mr. Peterson is like ‘Pat’ on the older SNL Show…?
More English nitpicking, Mr. Peterson,…but does the Bible really show conduct that is, as you posited:
‘agaisnt’ something? [Boy, that's hard to pronounce!]
I’m aghast!…?
Hey, we all ‘flub’, occasionally…especially when are emotions get the best of us…HmmmMMM?
31 July 2006, on 11:14 am
Yeah, my flub!…are = our.
Now, I’m getting emotionally worked up!
31 July 2006, on 1:37 pm
[...] From GiFS, a great post about Rev. Gregory A. Boyd of Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul (NYT login, username coffeehousepoet, password coffeehousepoet). This is what I want to hear from religious leaders. Meanwhile, like most of the country, we’re in the midst of a killer heatwave (no such thing as global warming, nope, no way). The weather folks are predicting a scorching 105° today (and humid as all hell, too). My cooks are going to be miserable. I intend to tell them to shut down several pieces of equipment in the kitchen, like the steam table, pizza oven, and charbroiler, to reduce the heat output in there. I may even have the restaurant spring for Gatorade or Poweraid for the boys. Also, I’ve found a line on cheap hardwood flooring. It seems that one of the local bowling alleys, where an acquaintance of mine works, is having new lanes put in. My friend informs me that her boss will be selling off the sections of old maple lanes very cheaply. I’m having her get a price for me, and then we’ll go have a look, and see if it’s in any shape to be used. If so — cheap hardwood floors for me! Woohoo! Considering that I drive a little oven with no AC, and it’s a million and a half degrees out there today, I’m thinking I’m wearing a skirt to work. I’ve got a nice black one that will do just fine. Otherwise, I’ll probably melt on the way in, and we don’t want that. A sailor was caught AWOL as he tried to sneak on board his ship at about 3 am. The chief petty officer spied him and ordered the sailor to stop. The officer ordered the sailor, “Take this broom and sweep every link on this anchor chain by morning or it’s the brig for you!” The sailor picked up the broom and started to sweep the chain. Just then, a tern landed on the broom handle. The sailor yelled at the bird to leave, but it didn’t. The lad picked the tern off the broom handle, giving the bird a toss. The bird left, only to return and light once again on the broom handle. The sailor went through the same routine all over again, with the same result. He couldn’t get any cleaning done because he could only sweep at the chain once or twice before the silly bird came back. When morning came, so did the chief petty officer, to check up on his wayward sailor. ”What on earth have you been doing all night? This chain is no cleaner than when you started! What have you to say for yourself, sailor?” barked the chief. ”Honest, chief,” came the reply, “I tossed a tern all night and couldn’t sweep a link!” / Permalink) [...]
31 July 2006, on 3:37 pm
“Don’t get me wrong, I’m not christian. I care not about what homosexuals do for fun. I know, however, that christianity has taboos agaisnt ‘laying with another man as he would with a woman’. I hope that answers your question.”
So why don’t you tell us a little about yourself Petersen? Nothing too personal, just exactly what your plan here is, what you believe, etc.
1 August 2006, on 9:09 pm
RDZ: I’ll make it simple. I hold as much contempt for the entire political system as athiests hold for the “invisible sky daddy”.
And I tried to evolve, but ended up crapping my pants instead, so..
“How should I F*(% off, oh lord?”
1 August 2006, on 9:10 pm
Oops, the first half of that post was for Rat bastid, the other half for rdz..