I Told You So
19 August 2006 by Raindogzilla
I mean, to all the religious nutjobs in my life; I told you so:
“Several weeks ago, a ground-breaking study on religious belief and social well-being was published in the Journal of Religion & Society. Comparing 18 prosperous democracies from the U.S. to New Zealand, author Gregory S Paul quietly demolished the myth that faith strengthens society.
Drawing on a wide range of studies to cross-match faith – measured by belief in God and acceptance of evolution – with homicide and sexual behavior, Paul found that secular societies have lower rates of violence and teenage pregnancy than societies where many people profess belief in God.
Top of the class, in both atheism and good behavior, come the Japanese. Over eighty percent accept evolution and fewer than ten percent are certain that God exists. Despite its size – over a hundred million people – Japan is one of the least crime-prone countries in the world. It also has the lowest rates of teenage pregnancy of any developed nation.
(Teenage pregnancy has less tragic consequences than violence but it is usually unwanted, and it is frequently associated with deprivation among both mothers and children. In general, it is a Bad Thing.)
Next in line are the Norwegians, British, Germans and Dutch. At least sixty percent accept evolution as a fact and fewer than one in three are convinced that there is a deity. There is little teenage pregnancy , although the Brits, with over 40 pregnancies per 1,000 girls a year, do twice as badly as the others. Homicide rates are also low — around 1-2 victims per 100,000 people a year.
At the other end of the scale comes America. Over 50 percent of Americans believe in God, and only 40 percent accept some form of evolution (many believe it had a helping hand from the Deity). The U.S. has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy and homicide rates are at least five times greater than in Europe and ten times higher than in Japan.
All this information points to a strong correlation between faith and antisocial behavior — a correlation so strong that there is good reason to suppose that religious belief does more harm than good.
At first glance that is a preposterous suggestion, given that religions preach non-violence and sexual restraint. However, close inspection reveals a different story. Faith tends to weaken rather than strengthen people’s ability to participate in society. That makes it less likely they will respect social customs and laws.
All believers learn that God holds them responsible for their actions. So far so good, but for many, belief absolves them of all other responsibilities. Consciously or subconsciously, those who are “born again” or “chosen” have diminished respect for others who do not share their sect or their faith. Convinced that only the Bible offers “truth”, they lose their intellectual curiosity and their ability to reason. Their priority becomes not the world they live in but themselves.
The more people prioritize themselves rather than those around them, the weaker society becomes and the greater the likelihood of antisocial behavior. Hence gun laws which encourage Americans to see each other not as fellow human beings who deserve protection, but as potential aggressors who deserve to die. And hence a health care system which looks after the wealthy rather than the ill.
As for sex… Faith encourages ignorance rather than responsible behavior. In other countries, sex education includes contraception, reducing the risk of unwanted pregnancies. Such an approach recognizes that young people have the right to make their own choices and helps them make decisions that benefit society as a whole. In America faith-driven abstinence programs deny them that right — “As a Christian I will only help you if you do what I say”. The result is soaring rates of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.
Abstinence programs rest on the same weak intellectual foundation as creationism and intelligent design. Faith discourages unprejudiced analysis. Reasoning is subverted to rationalization that supports rather than questions assumptions. The result is a self-contained system that maintains an internal logic, no matter how absurd to outside observers.
The constitutional wall that theoretically separates church and state is irrelevant. Religion has overwhelmed the nation to permeate all public discussion. Look no further than Gary Bauer, a man who in any other western nation would be dismissed as a fanatic and who in America is interviewed deferentially on prime time television.
Despite all its fine words, religion has brought in its wake little more than violence, prejudice and sexual disease. True morality is found elsewhere. As UK Guardian columnist George Monbiot said in his review of Gregory Paul’s study, “if you want people to behave as Christians advocate, you should tell them that God does not exist.”
I might express that another way. The flip side of Monbiot’s argument is that God would be an atheist…
19 August 2006, on 5:42 pm
Now, let me get this straight, RDZ…if God would be an atheist, does that mean we atheists will be the ones to be Raptured?
[Or is it Ruptured?]
Great post!
Of course, I think we atheists have known it all along! Those Japanese are always…as the old Panasonic slogan went (?)…”just slightly ahead of their (and our) time”.
On second thought…change that to…WAY ahead!
19 August 2006, on 5:45 pm
This type of faith to me has been nothing more than an acquiescence to fate. While they claim that their faith makes them stronger. I see it as making them weaker and reliant on external fantasies. They submit willingly without question. They do not think for themselves or even of themselves. They have no ability to reason out a solution to any problem. I think faith has been the biggest swindle of all. If you do not expect to be able to figure out what life throws at you then you will perish. Faith destroys that ability to reason.
I also find it rather strange that moral absolutists claim that god gave them their morals and that to do otherwise is in disobedience to god. Until they in fact need to punish one of their own. Then it’s all forgiveness and redemption.
19 August 2006, on 7:01 pm
Yeah, I read about this study. The next time one of these fundie fucktards starts spouting off about us not having a moral compass, we should just send them a link to this.
19 August 2006, on 7:27 pm
[...] In case you wonder why I bother to write this blog, or in case you wonder why there are so many freethinkers on the internet with websites dedicated to combatting the fundie threat, then run, don’t walk, RUN! over to God is for Suckers! and read the article called I Told You So. [...]
19 August 2006, on 7:38 pm
One thing I learned when getting my psychology degree is that you have to be very careful about stating causation between any two factors. Honestly, you can say that anything can cause anything, even though one may have nothing to do with the other.
That said, and I state this not as an atheist but as a psychologist, I think the author brings up some very fine points about causation, particularly in terms of the abstinence/teenage pregnancy argument.
Fascinating article, and definitely something I will cite to my fundie acquaintances. I’m going to try to get my hands on the entire article so I can see what types of statistical analyses he used to come to these conclusions. I think he makes a very fine argument, though. And the atheist in me shouts a big, “Fuck yeah!”
19 August 2006, on 8:52 pm
Taking the risk of being accused of farting too loudly in church, I will emphasize that this study is only based on “18 prosperous democracies” — a ridiculously small sampling group in anyone’s book for a correlative study’s conclusions to be trumpeted as all that indicative.
19 August 2006, on 9:03 pm
Godsarefake,
I’m not quite sure I see what you’re saying. What does it matter whether it’s 5 or 20 countries? Prosperous or not; how does that affect a country’s ranking? It’s a continuum.
19 August 2006, on 9:14 pm
I think, if the object were to study the differences in “prosperous democracies”, then using all 18 of those at their disposal was the proper way to go. I mean, what else were they gonna throw in there- the bloom on the democratic rose called Iraq? I’m just gonna enjoy it for a while…
19 August 2006, on 9:53 pm
I haven’t read the study completely, so I do not know why the study was limited to prosperous countries only — I can only speculate.
I was only criticizing the small sampling size. It simply goes down to the idea what would you think would be more likely to be accurate, conclusions drawn from a survey of five people or conclusions drawn from a survey of 10,000 people? The more samples you use the less likely an anomolous sample (which are unavoidable) is going to lead you to draw erroneous conclusions.
RDZ, you are completely right, who else could they include? There just aren’t any available.
However, just because a study has only 18 possible souces to sample, it doesn’t mean they are representative: the same problem with small sample size I mentioned above still exists. A more accurate form of this study may simply not be possible. A different methodology may be the only solution.
To the study’s credit, it does have “A First Look” as a subtitle, which does indicate that the authors of this study do not intend anyone to take this study as conclusive evidence, but merely as an indication that the topic may be worth further study.
19 August 2006, on 11:47 pm
The database for this study was 800 million people with data being collected in the middle and latter half of the 1990s and early 2000s. This seems to be a rather large sample compared with the figures we usually hear from survey companies and pollsters.
The study does not prove that religion causes dysfunctional societies, but the alternative conclusion that religions flourish in dysfunctional societies is really no better. Religion looks bad either way you interpret the findings. Skeptic magazine had a review of this study as well.
20 August 2006, on 12:03 am
Jimmer sez:
“This type of faith to me has been nothing more than an acquiescence to fate.”
I had an interesting discussion with someone caling themselves “Mellow Monotheist” about this very topic on a thread last week titled “Fuck Your God”.
I don’t know how to link to an active comment thread, so maybe Sean or Bob could help me out…?
Like you noted, “faith based” ideology tends to support a life of pliable, acquiescent obedience.
Take a look at our exchange if you like. See how it all ultimately plays out.
20 August 2006, on 12:59 am
The database for this study was 800 million people with data being collected in the middle and latter half of the 1990s and early 2000s. This seems to be a rather large sample compared with the figures we usually hear from survey companies and pollsters.
Thanks Lynda, I got distracted and forgot to read the study until you posted here and jogged my memory.
I was hoping there was something easy that countered my cursory observaton earlier today. I was beginning to feel like I could hear crickets chirping in here….I am so glad to stand corrected on this point. Good find RDZ. Thanks for the Skeptic reference too, Lynda.
20 August 2006, on 4:19 am
There are many kinds of faith. Some may make people passive, others may spur people to action. Some may restrict people’s concern to other members of their own faith, others may expand that concern to all of humanity and beyond. It is impossible to generalize.
Certainly people who feel caught in bad situations they can’t change or escape from may turn to religion (or to violence and other reckless behaviors) more than they might otherwise. Traditional cultures had (and have) high degrees of both religion and poverty. This may explain some of the correlations identified in the study.
20 August 2006, on 4:59 am
but for many, belief absolves them of all other responsibilities. Consciously or subconsciously, those who are “born again” or “chosen” have diminished respect for others who do not share their sect or their faith. Convinced that only the Bible offers “truth”, they lose their intellectual curiosity and their ability to reason. Their priority becomes not the world they live in but themselves.
What an excellent description of the distorted morality of the theist.
20 August 2006, on 8:37 am
Lynda,
I saw the summary in Skeptic a couple of weeks ago and I like the way the graphs are presented there. They are much easier to read.
20 August 2006, on 12:59 pm
I found this same article posted on the October 21, 2005 on James Randi’s website (see: http://www.randi.org/jr/200510/102105herbs.html). If anyone is interested in the pdf version: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf
20 August 2006, on 2:06 pm
MellowMonotheist states: Traditional cultures had (and have) high degrees of both religion and poverty. This may explain some of the correlations identified in the study.
Mellow, you really should read the study. It was based on data collected from “prosperous” societies exactly for that reason of associations between religion and poverty. The reseachers wanted to avoid the speculation that poverty, as opposed to religion, was the correlating factor. They also used only democracies in the study to prevent tainting the data with correlations between healthy societies and governance.
There seems to be no way to escape the conclusions that religion is linked, either as cause or result, to unhealthy societies.
20 August 2006, on 7:17 pm
Ye Gawds: We’re the fucking “control group”! From the introduction to the above-cited report:
“In the twentieth century, extensive secularization occurred in western nations, the United States being the only significant exception (Bishop; Bruce; Gill et al.; Sommerville).”
Europe and Asia received the vacine, but the US only got the placebo??? WTF? Does that mean that atheists have a natural immunity to the xtian virus?
20 August 2006, on 10:17 pm
I’m moving to Japan. Fuck, I totally wanna learn Japanese now.
20 August 2006, on 10:33 pm
“no sex, no drugs, no wine, no women, no fun, no sin, no you, no wonder it’s dark. everyone around me is a total stranger, everyone avoids me like a cyclone ranger, everyone. turning japanese, i think i’m turning japanese, i really think so…”- the Vapors- see picture accompanying post.
21 August 2006, on 12:33 am
Lynda, I did read the study, but you’re right. I meant (relatively) undeveloped areas within advanced nations that might retain more traditional patterns of both religion and poverty.
21 August 2006, on 6:22 am
Hi, I’m from the UK and I’m an atheist. We have a growing problem with muslims here. I find it frustrating that such a tiny minority of the UK population has such a great say over what our Government does. UK Government is always talking to “Muslim community leaders”, but there is no such thing. They aren’t elected by anyone and are not accountable. These muslim community leaders demand that the UK changes its foreign policy as a result of the threat of terrorism. I’m no fan of Blair (I think he is a lieing mass murderer), but he was at least elected. We should not be dictated to by an unelected minority.
Hope the situation never gets as bad here as it is with Christian fundementalist over in the US.
21 August 2006, on 8:24 am
Hey just thought you’d like to know that there is an article on Jefferson on the bbc website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5264712.stm). Wish he were running the US today. I’d be even happier if he were UK PM.
21 August 2006, on 9:34 am
I meant (relatively) undeveloped areas within advanced nations that might retain more traditional patterns of both religion and poverty.
Is poverty a cause of dysfunctional societies or a symptom? Does religion promote poverty? I’d like to see a similar study showing any, if any, correlation between religion and poverty.
21 August 2006, on 9:58 am
Thanks, Andrew, for the BBC article about Jefferson.
The author seemed perturbed by the lack of political awareness of the British public when they knew who Harry Potter is but not the British PM Tony Blair. Americans tend to be more interested in Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt than what’s happening in US politics. Jay Leno, a TV late night talk show host, goes “jay walking” to talk to average citizens on the streets of US cities and it is amazing how out of touch they can be with current affairs.
I think the British attitude about past prime ministers which does not glorify their lives or contributions is healthier than the American pedestal-building, monument-raising and fanatical allegiance to US presidents both past and present.
When your prime ministers start telling you that they have been elected by god, as GW Bush does, then you really have to worry.
21 August 2006, on 11:31 am
The scary part of those “Jaywalking” segments, along with similar ones done by folks up to and including Sean Han(djob)nity, is that very, very few people recognize the evil leer on the Mr. Potter(Its A Wonderful Life) face of “Deadeye” Dick Cheney, the one that’s really running things.
21 August 2006, on 2:28 pm
RG great distillation, I will be going over the original material shortly. An excellent synopsis.
21 August 2006, on 2:37 pm
As big-brained elitists throughout history have clearly known, it is at our own peril that we pull that deity-flavored pacifier out of the mouths of the throbbing masses. You think they’re bad now? Try turning a few hundred million god-fearin’ pistol-packin’ super-bowlin’ illiterati into Nihilists, my friend, and watch the fun start. It’s one thing to be smart enough to know that ‘god’ is merely Santa in His birthday suit…but it bespeaks an altogether higher order of intelligence to keep the insight to one’s self in a world full of room-temp IQs and AK 47s. Capisce? Now pass me that hymnal and STFU…
21 August 2006, on 3:19 pm
Great article. I find this to be the truth. Our society is flawed by the overwhelming push for religion.
21 August 2006, on 4:30 pm
I thought people of faith led lives of quiet, acquiescent obedience. That must be when we’re not shooting unbelievers with our AK-47s. Or are you just making this stuff up?
21 August 2006, on 8:03 pm
Mellow, I think that there are believers who do live lives of quiet, acquiescent obedience and I have no problem with them. It’s the loudmouthed, proselytizing, Wall of Separation mining, theocracy-minded Dominionists that are so worrisome. I think most of those in the US today who call themselves “Christian” wouldn’t know Jesus if he walked up and smacked the smirk right off their faces.
21 August 2006, on 11:38 pm
author Gregory S Paul quietly demolished the myth that faith strengthens society.
Is that the same Gregory Paul who cowrote one of my favorite books (”Beyond Humanity: Cyberevolution & Future Minds”)? He Googles as such, but his Wikipedia article makes no mention of all published works, just the aforementioned article and the ones about dinosaurs.
I think they’re the same guy.
As for Japan, are they suffering the same birthrate decline that Europe is (signifying nihilism infection)?
21 August 2006, on 11:38 pm
Meant to add:
We need more sane secularists, not fewer!
23 August 2006, on 1:45 am
[...] The site is not all fun and games, though. The authors also crank out lots of in-your-face cultural commentary. For example, a recent post discussed a 2005 study by Gregory Paul (in the Journal of Religion and Society) finding that “secular societies have lower rates of violence and teenage pregnancy than societies where many people profess belief in God.” Tags: Humor, Recommended Reading/Films/Sites, ReligionThese icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. [...]
16 September 2006, on 2:57 pm
Great article. It was always my feeling that religion (specifically Christianity) was the root cause of many problems we have in the world today including the bulk of the -isms (racism, sexism) that continue to pervade American society. The message of superiority is pervasive in the “Good Book”. The Cannanites were butchered because they didn’t believe the same as their invaders and even JC was notoriously disrespectful to people who didn’t follow him.
I think, at first, removing the pacifier of religion will cause a ruckus but that is the case with any type of social change. I’m not sure that religion should be removed completely but I do think we need to break its grip on America.
20 October 2006, on 2:12 pm
as a christian i applaud this study.
i think most people use god and religion as a drug.
true religion makes one more responsible for self, the needs of others, etc.
spirituality is just like sex. a good thing that can be misused. and modern fundamentalism is spiritual buggery. (no offence to gays)
20 October 2006, on 2:57 pm
“true religion makes one more responsible for self, the needs of others, etc.”
You’re kidding, right? Were the Israelites more responsible for self and the needs of others when they slaughtered tens or hundreds of thousands of Canaanites under the hand of Joshua and god, just because they worshipped other gods? Were the crusaders more responsible for self and others when rampaging through the so-called holy lands? The Inquisition? And those are just the biggies.
Religion is a crutch, plain and simple. You don’t need it to be moral or have a conscience. But you DO need it, apparently, to be able to molest young boys and get away with it.
Revenant
20 October 2006, on 3:06 pm
And here’s some more responsibility for self and the needs of others exhibited by religious authorities:
Groping Priests