Fundamentalist Ilk
22 August 2006 by jimmer
This is one of the things that set the Muslims to riot. Just one of many things. This was on 60 Minutes last night.
Slaughter And ‘Submission’
Creator Of Dutch Film Vows Sequel Despite Muslim Death Threats
(Page 1 of 3)Aug. 20, 2006
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Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s film, “Submission,” has offended Muslims worldwide, especially those living in the Netherlands, where it first appeared on television. (CBS)
Quote
Called “Submission,” the film depicts the Koran written on a naked Muslim woman’s body, and on the body of another woman scarred from beatings inflicted by her husband.
——————————————————————————–
(CBS) This story originally aired on March 13, 2005.
In Nov., 2004 a brutal murder shocked Holland and the world. On a busy Amsterdam street, in broad daylight, a prominent film maker named Theo van Gogh was shot, stabbed and mutilated in front of dozens of witnesses.
A young Muslim radical was arrested. What was described as a ritual slaughter set off alarm bells throughout Europe and the United States, where millions of devout Muslims live as minorities in secular society.
For the Dutch who have prided themselves for centuries on a tradition of tolerance, it was a painful awakening, the prospect of a homegrown jihad in the world’s most liberal state. As Morley Safer reported 18 months ago, it all began with a movie called “Submission,” a 12 minute movie, which aired on Dutch television.
The images were meant to shock.
This is a pretty long story and you can find the rest here:
The part that is the most troubling is this:
Paul Scheffer, a professor of sociology at the University of Amsterdam, says people of faith of every kind are welcome, so long as they understand that in Dutch democracy, virtually nothing is sacred.
“You can’t live here with a holy book that is above or beyond our democracy. Your holy book will be the object of criticism,” says Scheffer. “It will be the object of interpretation, and sometimes of ridicule. And if you can’t accept that, you can’t live here.”
“But it’s not so easy, because what you’re asking these families to do, when you even suggest that, is give up your tradition,” says Safer. “And become one of us.”
“They could interest themselves more for this society and the other way around as well,” says Scheffer. “No one was interested in their existence. Never a question was asked because nobody was interested in the answer.”
On that point, Nabil Marmouch, a Muslim community leader, agrees with Scheffer. He says Muslims in Holland have been marginalized and worse. And the movie, “Submission,” is a prime example.
“You cannot emancipate women by insulting them,” says Marmouch. “Unless, of course, that is your hidden agenda, to insult them, and to create what has happened here in the Netherlands.”
Marmouch, who is starting a Muslim political party, says murder is wrong, but he says he was not surprised by the murder of Van Gogh: “We could expect that from the beginning.”
In part, Marmouch’s lack of surprise stems from the fact that Van Gogh insulted people from all religious backgrounds. “So that is a good argument,” asks Marmouch. “‘Oh, we Christians are being insulted, so you Muslims should also be insulted?’ No, I don’t think so.”
Marmouch adds, “The whole thing is being politicized by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.”
Marmouch expects us to believe that because he says murder is wrong that we will believe him. But schizophrenia sets in and he follows that with “We could expect that from the beginning”.
The same as this in our (xian?) society: From the book “Kingdom Coming” Which has been mentioned here before.
Reclaiming America for Christ is a place where the Christian nationalist movement drops it’s pretenses and indulges it’s theocratic dreams.
Pam Stenzel; Psychology degree from Jerry Falwell’s Liberty univ. an abstinence educator says: Aids is not the enemy. HPV and a hysterectomy at 20 is not the enemy. An unplannned pregnancy is not the enemy. My child believing that they can shake their fist in the face of a holy god and sin without consequence, and my child spending eternity separated from god IS the enemy. I will not teach my child that they can sin safely.
At the core of fundamentalist beliefs is an undeniable dislike/hatred for humankind. Their lack of love and compassion is apparent in the words they use and in the rules they make or attempt to make. It makes little difference if it is Islam, Xianty, or any of 10,000 other fantasies. The fact remains and that is that if you do not agree with them you may be murdered and their people incur no blame or guilt. You can contract a preventable illness but if you contracted it from premarital sex then you deserve the pain and suffering that goes along with it.
I say “do one thing and do it well”. I learned this years ago when I was unfocused. I learned it and effectively apply this to many ideas I have. The fundamentalists do it too and for 30- 40 years in the U.S. they have done one thing really well. So well that they have placed a liar in the White House. With their influence they have controlled politics in our country for about 5 years and we see what is in store for us if we let them continue. If someone wants to practice their religion? Fine, let them . But when they want my participation or my money to do nothing but stupid irrelevant and ridiculous nonsense. No thanks.
The movie Submission was of a woman under a sheer veil but fully nude and she had verses of the Quran written all over her body. Here is a short of Submission
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2655656
22 August 2006, on 4:41 am
The assassination of Theo van Gogh, an actual descendant of Vincent (and his brother’s namesake), has been troubling indeed for the world’s most tolerant nation. I always laugh in people’s faces when they say “America is the most free nation in the world!” Duh. No, it actually isn’t. Where else can you practically have sex in public while smoking a gigantic joint than in Amsterdam?
We’ve spoken a bit about this issue here before, but thanks to Jimmer for bringing it up again. What does a nation that prides itself on tolerance do when intolerance invades its borders? I know we have a few Dutch readers out there who have chimed in on this now and again. I would love to hear from you folks a bit more about all this.
Because, also, you know these same issues are coming to America.
22 August 2006, on 6:49 am
“At the core of fundamentalist beliefs is an undeniable dislike/hatred for humankind.”
The above line jumped out at me. Fundamentalists have a hatred and disgust for humankind right down to their own bodies.
(Xians do it, too.)
Then it doesn’t stop there - they want us ALL to hate humankind and ourselves. They teach their young children to hate.
(Again, Xians do it too.)
And they want to drag us all along into this insanity with them. It is their great mission by “orders” from their gawds who live in their warped minds.
Good post, jimmer (though extremely depressing.)
22 August 2006, on 10:28 am
This makes my blood boil, and yet, at the same time makes me very sad. Sad, because there seems to be no way to reach these super-brainwashed people, who can’t get out of their closed system of illogic. I am especially concerned about the women. I’ve even seen women covered almost from head to toe in black shopping in the USA at Whole Foods. We’re supposed to respect their “culture” and their “customs”. What culture? What customs? This is insanity!
22 August 2006, on 10:53 am
I suppose it comes with being a free country. Germany, France, Denmark, the Netherlands, all of them are under attack by waves of Muslim immigrants that refuse to assimilate. The tolerance and freedom of enlightenment almost seem to handicap the governments in their dealings with the intruders. They, like us, believe in the power of culture in a free society to erode the rough edges of different ethnic and ideological groups so that they fit together, if not seamlessly, in a way that chafes the least. And, up to this latest influx, they- and we, have been right to believe thusly.
Freedom is contagious or freedom is the ultimate immune system response to a foreign presence in the bloodstream. The fundamentalist Muslims now immigrating to the West are either immune to the contagion or impervious to the T-cells. I often wonder why, since they seem to have no interest in the freedom at their disposal here, they bother coming at all. I mean, they can go all shari’a, veiled and submissive to their hearts content wherever they came from in the first place. Is it simply the economic opportunities? That seems unlikely, given the Muslim ghettos of today’s European capitals and the unemployment rates there for Muslim men.
It leaves me thinking- almost against my will, that they are “settlers” testing the boundaries of the new Western frontier, with the aim of colonizing it for the Caliphate. And that’s just creepy. Trouble is, I see no way of stopping it without seriously compromising my cherished principles of, to plagiarize Elvis Costello, peace, love, and understanding. Because laws that, say, prohibit veiling in public, smack of the same racism as English as the national language initiatives. What to do, what to do.
22 August 2006, on 11:04 am
“So that is a good argument,” asks Marmouch. “‘Oh, we Christians are being insulted, so you Muslims should also be insulted?’ …”
…Er, yes. Why should Muslims be exempt?
22 August 2006, on 12:09 pm
Hi - just discovered your blog through Martian Anthropologist (I should surf more often!) Fundies always scared the crap outta me, and now they’re running the country.
22 August 2006, on 12:22 pm
heh. I like the first picture: “Behead those who say Islam is violent.” Ironic.
22 August 2006, on 12:32 pm
You also don’t liberate women by making them wear burqas. Some traditions are just so cruel and stupid that rational human beings can agree they should be outlawed. We don’t let people mutilate the genitals of their little girls here in the US because, even though it may be somebody’s culture, it’s inhumane. Muslims are not special, and should not be exempt from things or get special privaleges. No religion should.
22 August 2006, on 12:48 pm
The Middle East Research Institute published a report about the Saudi educational system which includes this passage:The concept of spreading Islam throughout the world is a fundamental pillar of the Saudi education system, as the following principles from the document by the Higher Committee for Educational Policy indicate:’The purpose of education is to understand Islam in a proper and complete manner, to implement and spread the Muslim faith, to provide a student with Islamic values, and teachings.’[7]The document discusses the importance of ‘providing the individual with the necessary ideas, consciousness and abilities to preach the message of Islam.’
So, Raindog, this may answer your query about why so many fundie mush-lims want to immigrate to the good ol’ USA.
22 August 2006, on 12:58 pm
This topic makes me so angry - they’re just like the evangelical fundie xians, wanting us all to conform to their way of life, even if we disagree with them. Neither group really wants tolerance and equality; they want first to be the superior, then the sole belief system in existence. If there were some way to let them duke it out between them without involving the rest of us, I’d be all for it!
22 August 2006, on 1:05 pm
That “behead those” sign has got to be a joke!
22 August 2006, on 1:08 pm
Lynda - Good link. This is what I was trying to point out about the neighborhoods around the Chicago area, like Bridgeview. I used to live in neighboring Burbank, which also has a high and steadily growing muslim population. As the older long-time residents died or moved out of the area when their kids grew up, muslims purchased the once public school buildings one by one and made them private muslim schools for their children. Like xian schools, religion is the number one most important subject taught. They are taught that they are to avoid the temptations of the westerners…but are living here. It doesn’t make sense to live here if they don’t like the way we live. So far, muslims haven’t gone around “evangelizing” but keep pretty much to themselves like the Amish. I don’t see a problem IF it stays that way. But their religion says to convert to islam like xians believe they are supposed to do according to their “holy” text.
22 August 2006, on 1:14 pm
One commenter at ifilm asked if the video were true then why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world and its new devotees predominantly women?
Why are more women converting to Islam than men? Could it be that Islamic men who are allowed to take non-Muslim wives–but Islamic women must marry a Muslim–”encourage” them to convert?
One should also remember that many countries where Islam is the state religion have a high birth rate, unlike more democratic societies.
22 August 2006, on 1:16 pm
As much as I despise the fundie xians, I loathe the moslems even more. I saw the 60 Minutes piece a couple of times, and I’m still shocked to see this happen in Holland. If I were in charge over there, I’d just start deporting them.
To Iraq.
Hello, Islam! You don’t have a right NOT to be “offended”!!! As a matter of fact, your existence is offensive to ME. So, you know what? Get over yourselves. Go pray to your big black rock in the desert and tell me that’s not idol worship.
Fucking neanderthals…
22 August 2006, on 1:21 pm
So far, muslims haven’t gone around “evangelizing” but keep pretty much to themselves like the Amish.
I should add to the above statement that at least the Amish will look you in the eye and nod a friendly hello.
22 August 2006, on 1:29 pm
Star sez:
I used to live in neighboring Burbank, which also has a high and steadily growing muslim population. As the older long-time residents died or moved out of the area when their kids grew up, muslims purchased the once public school buildings one by one and made them private muslim schools for their children.
That’s interesting. We’re having a imilar phenomenon going on here, but it’s still in the beginning stages. We just had a primary for a state senate race that encompasses most of the city of St. Louis, and one of the candidates was moslem. She had been taking money from a Wal Mart funded PAC called “All Children Matter”. Their main issue is school vouchers. They love ‘em, and they want tax dollars to pay for a parochial education.
Luckily, this woman lost to a progressive in a 5 way race, but it was close. Something tells me that a fundie moslem school is not that far off, considering that we also have a lot of shuttered public schools in the poorest neighborhoods here.
22 August 2006, on 1:41 pm
That’s interesting. We’re having a imilar phenomenon going on here, but it’s still in the beginning stages.
I see this happening in neighborhoods all around Chicagoland. These muslim families who immigrate here are not poor. They pay the high prices and taxes to live in these places. Yet most want nothing to do with their American neighbors.
I have been trying not to be paranoid, but when you see it growing, and they are so many muslim fundies on our soil, I can see future problems as there are more and more of them moving here and making more and more demands for accomodations for their religious beliefs. If we think we have problems now keeping our freedoms and rights out of the clutches of the xian right, what a fight we will have with yet another major religious group wanting to impose their beliefs on all of us via the government and our “democratic process.” Hopefully this isn’t the beginnings of the “downfall of Rome.”
22 August 2006, on 1:50 pm
I do believe you’re right, Star. Or rather, I fear you are. Sorry, didn’t mean to use the “B” word. My bad.
22 August 2006, on 1:56 pm
“At the core of fundamentalist beliefs is an undeniable dislike/hatred for humankind.”
There have been many platitudes spoken about hate (Stardust almost mentioned it in her first post on this thread) but the one that comes to mind for me is: “The thing you hate the most about everyone else is the thing you hate the most about yourself.” I think at the core of every fundie belief, no matter what flavor, is a deep hate of themselves as individuals and as a collective.
22 August 2006, on 2:00 pm
I understand that those Muslims coming to the West are not, in any sense, evangelical. From what I remember, they look down their noses at converted Black Muslims like Farrakhan. So, it’s not a problem of that kind of spread but one of sheer birthrate, especially in Europe, where the population growth rate among citizens has dropped below zero- as in more die than are born on the whole. The immigrants there are breeding at the same clip that they did in their homelands so their net growth to population as a whole is even faster.
That’s not a problem here, so far, what with our tightened immigration policies on the countries the Muslim immigrant would come from- perhaps the only piece of the Global War On Terror that’s actually working out well for the nation is that particular moratorium. That strategy of overwhelming their targeted lands with sheer numbers probably won’t ever work here because our fastest growing population segment trends almost exclusively Catholic- and they don’t see women as much more than birthing machines either.
It’s, I don’t know, ironic? pathetic? that enlightenment- relative enlightenment anyway, has the most advanced of civilizations literally shrinking from responsible breeding and the emancipation of women and defenseless against the most primitive of onslaughts out of tolerance and principle. How can it be that liberty isn’t a trait by which a species prospers? Eulogize, indeed.
22 August 2006, on 2:07 pm
A muslim school in Villa Park,Illinois
“What have we done to propagate the true message of Islam, the true doctrines, the true image? Is it not an irony of the highest order that the religion of Islam, which not only literally means peace, but also is the earliest and strongest advocate of peace and harmony, is today synonymous with terrorism. And yes, some of us have not helped the image, but what have the rest of us done - other than possibly gripe and moan about the big “Jewish” conspiracy, or that of the “Christian Right”? Yes these are some of the worst enemies of Islam. But talking about them in our weekend dinner gatherings, or our Friday sermons, will get us nowhere.
We need to, using a western paraphrase, take the proverbial “bull” by the proverbial “horn”. We need to take things in our hands. We need to start living and behaving like Muslims - like the Prophet (Pbuh) - every day, every moment of our lives. After all, to use another old cliche, “Actions speak louder than words.”"
The “preparing our future” disturbs me…preparing “our” future…the islamic version of the xian “borg”??
Great…
http://www.ifsvp.org/
http://www.islamicfoundationvp.org/pages/Sections/3031/pageDetailSectionsPB.html
22 August 2006, on 2:10 pm
A couple of very good websites about the inner workings and intentions of the muslim schools here in the U.S. and the training and religious indoctrination of its children.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2696
http://www.universalschool.org/
22 August 2006, on 2:15 pm
“…like the Prophet (Pbuh)…”
I know it stands for Peace Be Upon Him but “pbuh!” alone calls to mind a Bronx cheer, a raspberry, a motorboat sound with a finger back and forth across the lips. It makes me think of that old video “Evangelical Gas” with Robert Tilton’s message overlaid with fart sounds.
If these particular folks are advocating an Islam of peace and harmony and bemoaning it’s becoming “synonymous with terrorism”, perhaps that’s not a bad thing- though the language is so vague as to mean just about anything. Why can’t fundies of any stripe write coherently?
22 August 2006, on 2:35 pm
RDZ - the deeper one digs into these websites, the more the fundamentalism shows itself…like in their online school newsletters. They describe themselves as “slaves for allah” and talk more about spreading the religion of islam via example, etc. Much like fundie xians. On the surface they seem like they just want to practice their religion and educate their children to live and become good members of society…but dig deeper and they condemn western society …so “which” society are they “preparing” their children for? Not the “evil western society”, that’s for sure.
I have talked with a few ex-muslims who know what goes on inside the mosques, where the American public rarely gets to see or hear what goes on, which is those who are against or reject islam will die (they don’t specify how…just that we will)…xians say we will “burn” after we die. No matter how or when they want us dead and to burn in a fictious place called hell…we have two major religions who wish death and eternal torture on us non-believers. I don’t think we can just be nonchalant about it and excuse it as “they are just practicing their religion.” We have two crazy looneytoon groups who are “on a mission from gawd.”
22 August 2006, on 2:49 pm
Tommykey -
That photo is supposedly a protestor in London…muslims believe that beheading is justified in many cases…but not for militants who take hostages. Religion and its double standards once again.
I found this:
“(AP) The Saudi government beheaded 52 men and one woman last year for crimes including murder, homosexuality, armed robbery and drug trafficking. But Saudis say that while Islam condones the punishment in one context, it condemns militants who decapitated hostages here and in Iraq. ”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/25/world/main626196.shtml
22 August 2006, on 2:56 pm
This subject always stirs up a huge amount of emotional stuff. Again, the notions of all the various psychopathic gods and ‘their’ insane prophets as the ancient instigators of all this crap. Of course, women have always been the greater victims throughout the history of all this insane human bullshit.
Stardust’s blog references…thanks Stardust…I finally [happily] added your address to my favs…added greatly to Jimmer’s original post.
Stardust brings up a very relevant point regarding what’s going on in our local neighborhoods. For years I’ve watched the enormous rise in the number of Xtian churches in any given area of the Chicago suburbs. Of late, however, on a prominent street in Des Plaines, IL [Potter north of Ballard (for Star’s reference?)]…about four blocks from me, a ‘beautiful’ example of a ‘luxurious looking’ Mosque has cropped up! Adjacent to the mosque is a very mansion-like house…perhaps the Imam’s? In other words, as Star intimated, these folks have money!
I think we’ve all had some episodes of what MoeNeigh described…a completely black-veiled mom with young kids dressed in ‘normal’ garb…even the younger girls, without veils strolling through the local supermarket or ‘whatever’. “My!…how American!”
Eve’s comment: “If there were some way to let them duke it out between them without involving the rest of us, I’d be all for it!”…reminded me, strangely enough of various George Carlin routines about solutions to criminals and fanatics.
In particular the recent one when he challenges “if there is a god…let him stike this audience dead…” etc.
I started thinking that we need to have a national challenge to all religions to PROVE the existence of their sky daddy. Something along George’s tactic; a live video from…oh…I dunno… maybe…Yankee Stadium? The event would, of course, have to be prefaced by a very hyped up advertising campaign…on ALL major media outlets.
OK…I’m deluding myself…but, somehow I imagine hearing Judy Tenuta(?) (with her accordian) saying:
“IT COULD HAPPEN!”…
and then my rational side retorts:…”NOT!”
22 August 2006, on 3:07 pm
Here is an EXCELLENT link to an article that I have been looking for that describes exactly about the rapid growth of the muslim community in the Chicago area.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/chicago.htm
The community’s growth in the southwest suburbs reflects an explosion in the Muslim population throughout the Chicago area, which has risen from 50,000 to more than 350,000 in the last 30 years.
22 August 2006, on 3:47 pm
It’s too bad the immigration department can’t include a contract to be signed by all would-be immigrants that requires a promise not to proselytize for any religion with penalty of deportation if such activity became apparent. But, too bad I love my freedom of speech too much to risk such public policy.
22 August 2006, on 4:03 pm
Stardust’s blog references…thanks Stardust…I finally [happily] added your address to my favs
ChuckA - thanks for adding my blog to your favs.
For years I’ve watched the enormous rise in the number of Xtian churches in any given area of the Chicago suburbs. Of late, however, on a prominent street in Des Plaines, IL [Potter north of Ballard (for Star’s reference?)]
So you are not far off of I-294?
We are way down by I-80 where the new I-355 extension is going in. We are also getting lots of new xian churches out this way. Fundie ones, at that (booooo hissss!) They put up a “church of christ” right down the street from us where there used to be open fields. I don’t know how many churches on community needs! Then in Orland Park where I often shop there is a new muslim mosque (residents protested against it but lost). Churches are popping up almost as fast as Gas City stations! When I shop at the Orland Square Mall there are so many muslim women wearing the long robes and headscarves that I feel like I am in another land. Then in my own neighborhood, there are too many cars with jeebus fishes and Bush bumber stickers and flags on houses. Arrrgh! We can’t even escape to places like Kodiak Island because they are invaded by rival religious cults!
I wonder what Greenland is like? We never hear about Greenland.
22 August 2006, on 4:09 pm
Door to door radical muslim evangelism
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1297/1706/1600/muslimevangelists.gif
22 August 2006, on 5:06 pm
Keeping your children Muslim in America
“Fatima” was a young, practicing Muslimah.
At 13, she was part of a family that tried to apply Islam in all aspects of life. They were role models for their local Muslim community. They were one of the very few Muslim families who did not even have a television set in their home.
Fatima talked about Islam enthusiastically, got good grades, respected her parents. While she did do some homeschooling, much of her time was spent in public school where she made sure to pray on time, wore her Hijab with pride and was active in encouraging others to do the same,
But then things changed.
She began smoking. Her Hijab came off. And on her 18th birthday, she ran away from home and eloped with a boyfriend she had been seeing for some time.
Fatima’s story is not new. Nor is it uncommon.
What went wrong? How could someone from a family that had tried so hard to maintain an Islamic environment, struggled to raise kids who were practicing Muslims, take a turn on the wrong path?
No human being is an island. What happens to our neighbor, our children’s classmates and our coworkers can very likely happen to us whether that’s a soaring divorce rate, family miscommunication, domestic violence or the loss of religious values.
In other words, society’s problems are not the problems of “those people out there”. They are our problems, and if we ignore them they will come creeping up to us at one point.
The secret to keeping your kids practicing Muslims
Parents who practice Islam, an Islamic home environment, limited exposure to media with unIslamic messages: these are some of the ingredients Muslims often promote for ensuring their children are raised as good Muslims.
But these alone are not the solution. Such an approach works for a number of Muslim kids, but not for all. Fatima’s example above should make that very clear.
It takes a bigger task than all of that: it takes making the society around you better.
Caring is the first step
Making the West, this powerful entity which has dominated Muslims’ lives for over 300 years in the military, political and cultural spheres, obedient to God, is an awesome, and some would say virtually impossible task.
How can we make the West or America an Islamic place?
It’s by caring about the future not just of our own kids, but by caring about the future of others.
More
22 August 2006, on 5:20 pm
Geez, Star, I think I’m going to be sick…
22 August 2006, on 5:38 pm
Geez, Star, I think I’m going to be sick…
We are getting to be surrounded by this in the Chicagoland area. While trying to maintain “religious tolerance” we are at the same time allowing these fundamentalist muslim groups to become “entrenched” so they can keep having babies and growing their populations. It is an extremely complicated problem. Our treasured freedoms seem to also put us in a “Catch 22″ situation.
Then we still have to try to keep the fundamentalist xian at bay.
What are we atheists to do?
22 August 2006, on 6:03 pm
Stardust
Thanks I was just getting into this last night and had to stop I got so irritated that these people think that they have the only rights to force their ways on us. We don’t need it nor do we want it. If their culture is so wonderful why did they leave? If they came to convert us then why don’t they say so.
They say:
How can we make the West or America an Islamic place?
You can’t so stop trying. More importantly you should be asking how can you become more free and tolerant of other people. This is a big world, you are free to have a home that is safe and contributes to your life. It just so happens that it may not be here in the west. We like it pretty much as is but always strive to make things better. We do not strive to adopt religious nonsense to do it for us. Nor do we look to some superstitious ghost like creature to do it for us or to be worshipped.
What I find even more apparent as I read is how this political force that exists world-wide is so accepting of other cultures but won’t stand up for their own. The Bush and Saudi families have been teammates for generations and both claim to be staunch religious in their own respective countries. The saudis teach their children to expect to wage war against the U.S.. The U.S. expects To wage war against terrorists and we people get caught in the mix. The two families get along and do business. The people suffer because o them. Saudis flew those planes and we invade Afghanistan. The Saudis bear full responsibility but have not been forced to bear up and come to terms with their crimes. It seems like a set-up to me. The power mongers have been using this as a play to gain power anyway they can.And they are winning at the game because they are defining it as they go.
George Carlin is correct: This god would have been fired. What a little sissy god these people believe in. Sheesh.
22 August 2006, on 6:25 pm
I wonder what will happen when Muslims begin to rival xians in terms of numbers?
What happens when you can no longer supress an opposing religion?
22 August 2006, on 6:30 pm
OK, now you guys are *really* scaring me…!
22 August 2006, on 6:33 pm
As if all of the above isn’t enough get a load of this.
http://blog.au.org/2006/08/lieutenants_for.html
Jerry Falwell has an accredited law school and guess what they are doing? Attacking our rights just like good little sissy ass facists.
22 August 2006, on 6:45 pm
I do think it’s important here that we not get all caught up in Muslim problems here when we’ve got far more serious Evilgelical problems. As of now, there are no Muslims trying to legislate morality and bigotry in our Congress. We’ve got a fundie Secretary of State in Ohio who’s managed to put himself in charge of the election he, himself, is running in- for Governor this time. I understand they’re right there in your face in the Chicago area- and if you happened upon Dearborn, Michigan you’d think you’d teleported to the Middle East but you have to be careful about your sources- i.e., Daniel Pipes, who belongs with the Little Green Footballs and the Atlasshrugs of the world, bigots from a different angle. The schools you linked to all seem to be accredited and focused on academic excellence- in addition to the Islamic training. A madras teaches the Quran, not science and algebra. Scanning their sites, I see parochial schools with different- albeit repressive- uniforms and no pictures of saints. Of course, I’d do away with parochial schools also. This is not intended to be critical but rather to say, step back, take a deep breath, and then look at it again. Or maybe I’m just playing devil’s advocate.
22 August 2006, on 7:18 pm
I do think it’s important here that we not get all caught up in Muslim problems here when we’ve got far more serious Evilgelical problems.
I don’t think we can just put fundamentalist islam aside and consider them “safe for now” while just focusing our attention on fundamentalist xianity in the political realm. Though their numbers aren’t as large, fundamentalist muslim Americans also have their say at the voting booth.
Ironically, Muslims mainly voted Republican in 2000 because they have viewed the Democrats as the “party of welfare” and “loose morality.” They supported Bush due to their resentment of “welfare,” “taxes,” and “social programs.”
Campaign 2004:Despite concerns, Muslim groups show support for Bush
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-04-29-bush-muslims_x.htm
22 August 2006, on 7:28 pm
RDZ,
Actually, there are more moslem political figures in office than you’d think. Even though the moslem woman (Yaphett El Amin) in our state senate race lost, she still was able to install another moslem in her old state rep seat and another got re elected.
I’m not dismissing the xian problem, but we shouldn’t ignore the Islamic problem.
Equal opportunity and all that.
22 August 2006, on 7:41 pm
I see it all as the same problem. Call it whatever name they go by. They are still bad for American freedoms. We can do and be so much more without religion why settle and focus on the one to the exclusion of the other? I think that we all agree that there is a problem. I was just pointing out my take on it as being global and not local. Fundamentalists are just plain wrong to make any claim on a political venue for their particular flavor of idealogy.
22 August 2006, on 8:51 pm
Isn’t anyone going to blame the Jews on this thread? WTF is wrong you peeps.
22 August 2006, on 8:56 pm
I hope you don’t mind some on topic shameless self promotion:
http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/2006/08/just-think-of-me-as-william-hung-of.html
22 August 2006, on 8:58 pm
Funny, AJ. I mean, if you really want me to, I’m sure I can find something on millenialist tendencies in the Torah. It wouldn’t be that hard…
22 August 2006, on 9:28 pm
AJ, in reference to Star’s point about American Muslims seeking political office to effect America’s foreign policy towards Israel, I think it’s fair to say that through AIPAC, Israel has far too much influence on the US government even as we speak- just ask
Sore LosermanJoe Lieberman. I don’t know if that’s blaming the Jews so much as blaming the nation of Israel- if the two can be separated. Further, if all true and claimant monotheists disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow, I wouldn’t lose much sleep over it. Okay, I’d miss my family, a lot. But still.Star, yes the American Muslims did vote for Bush in 2004 but they’ve become tremendously disenchanted with that choice of late. Hell, the Cuban-Americans in south Florida pretty much gave the state to Bush in 2000. I don’t like that influence either and, like I said above the Israelis have far too much influence on American foreign policy. I’ll leave it at my being far more frightened by A Beka homeschoolers, Evangelical private schools, and places like Liberty, Regent, and Patrick Henry College with their tacit or outright support from this administration and their Dominionist goals than I am American Muslims who’s aims haven’t yet been defined. Still, food for thought.
22 August 2006, on 9:32 pm
# The Atheist Jew Says:
August 22nd, 2006 at 8:51 pm EST
Isn’t anyone going to blame the Jews on this thread? WTF is wrong you peeps.
Um… Maybe we don’t have any permanent persecution complexes like you do.
22 August 2006, on 9:32 pm
Aj
Don’t get me started.LOL. You asked for it you got it. We do consider all religions as evil and bad for freedom. Abraham did start it though. Poor delusional Abraham. We have medication for people like him now-a-days. If we could just figure out a way to deliver the treatment to all the believers in Abraham’s religions
“Muslims in the streets” funny
22 August 2006, on 9:33 pm
And PS: I come from Irish Catholic stock, and you don’t hear me fucking whining all the time. In fact, one of my best friends is British.
22 August 2006, on 9:33 pm
“What happens when you can no longer supress an opposing religion?”
That’s when the killing starts. And if we’re lucky, we can just sit back, take potshots at both sides, and do our best to egg them on.
22 August 2006, on 9:38 pm
That’s when the killing starts. And if we’re lucky, we can just sit back, take potshots at both sides, and do our best to egg them on.
I am looking for a secular “Kodiak Island” to move to. Is there such a place? Maybe Antarctica with the penquins? Oh wait, it’s melting and falling into the sea…silly me.
22 August 2006, on 9:42 pm
Private Islands For Sale
22 August 2006, on 9:49 pm
Atheist Island… Coming soon to HBO.
22 August 2006, on 9:49 pm
I’ll only move to an Island where clothing is optional. I’ll still wear clothing, but I don’t want to stop others from prancing around naked.
22 August 2006, on 9:51 pm
Rain, that is your opinion about Israel having too much influence.
Israel and America are decent societies for the most part…..I see lots of people complaining about America, but few people wanting to leave it.
America and Canada (where I live), are two of the best dumpholes on this planet of dumpholes, to live.
22 August 2006, on 11:24 pm
That’s when the killing starts. And if we’re lucky, we can just sit back, take potshots at both sides, and do our best to egg them on.
Dang, RDZ, sure you haven’t been running the Pentagon for the past twenty years?
23 August 2006, on 12:50 am
I don’t see Muslims becoming more than 5% or 6% of the population. I imagine immigration from Islamic countries has declined and even with birth rates somewhat above the national average, they would not see their percentage of the population increase that much when Latino immigration would continue to dwarf them.
23 August 2006, on 12:57 am
I do think it’s important here that we not get all caught up in Muslim problems here when we’ve got far more serious Evilgelical problems. As of now, there are no Muslims trying to legislate morality and bigotry in our Congress.
While I agree that xian fundies head the campaign to legislate “morality” and bigotry in Congress, they are supported in their efforts by Muslims holding the same bigoted standards. Muslims don’t want women to have abortion rights or gays to marry and you can bet they will be voting for fundie candidates in the absence of Muslim alternatives.
Within the last year there was an attempt by Muslims to have Sharia Law accepted as legally binding in family dispute cases in Ontario, Canada. This attempt was quashed after protests across Canada and Europe. But it does show the political aspirations of Muslims.
No one should be fooled by this apparent imbecility:
(From one of Stardust’s links)
Muslims are the true followers of Jesus
Practical examples include the following:
APPEARANCE:
Ø The world acknowledges Jesus (Pbuh) to have been bearded. Which religious group emulates this example?
Ø Jesus (Pbuh) is commonly acknowledged to have dressed in modesty. Nobody imagines Jesus (Pbuh) in shorts and a tee-shirt, or even a form fitting suit. Any mental picture of Jesus (and those depicted by the non-Muslims) typically involves flowing robes, from wrists to ankles. Who has maintained this style of attire? The traditional clothing of the Middle East and the India-Pakistan subcontinent are perhaps the best examples of Jesus-like clothes.
23 August 2006, on 12:59 am
Sorry, I meant I imagine immigration from Islamic countries has declined since 9/11.
While Islamic fundamentalism bothers me the most of all the religions and I don’t want it spreading in America, at the same time if Muslims of different nationalities do well for themselves in America and their kids assimilate, it has the potential to show Muslims in other parts of the world that a more tolerant Islam and democracy can coexist. I know Bacon might think I’m a bit naive, but American Muslims can be turn out to be one of our best weapons against terrorism and extremism if handled properly.
23 August 2006, on 1:17 am
Well, just to make sure the Jews aren’t left out and keep AJ happy I’ll mention a very interesting article in Skeptic, Vol 12 No 3
The article gave the results of a survey of 176 Orthodox Jewish students allowed to attend public universities. The survey showed almost a complete denial of evolution and other modern scientific facts (i.e. age of the universe). The students surveyed preferred to get their scientific beliefs from rabbinical authorities rather than their college science courses. Most troubling were the responses from Jewish students who were science majors. They were less accepting of mainstream science than the Jewish students who were not science majors.
This quote from a physicist Dr Naftali Berg is particularly mind-boggling: All scientific theories by definition are tentative. They are not absolute. Our job is to investigate those theories that are consistent with Torah.
23 August 2006, on 1:31 am
American Muslims can be turn out to be one of our best weapons against terrorism and extremism if handled properly.
Yes, Tommy, this seems like a possibility. However, an American Muslim will always place his first allegiance with Islam and Allah, not America. Just as xian fundies are so willing to alter the US Constitution to fit with their first allegiance to a non-existent god.
When democracy arrives in countries like Afghanistan what happens? Do they adopt a bill of rights that protects freedom of speech and religion? No. A man gets arrested for converting to Christianity and faces a death sentence.
23 August 2006, on 1:46 am
There’s been a lot of talk here about Islamic fundies, but try not to let your fears of what Islamic fundies are doing around the world cloud your views of the American muslim situation. I don’t know if any know any American muslims, nor do I claim my personal experiences as being representative, but I did spend much of my spare time in the 1990’s among various Arab coffee houses around Los Angeles sharing a bowl of shisha over a friendly game of backgammon. I found the “fundie-scare” being talked about here is really being blown out of proportion.
Once people realized I wasn’t a CIA plant (and, no, I am not joking, it was a common assumption) I became good friends with many people in the Arab muslim community. They, much like the xians, have many progressive thinking people among their ranks, despite their continuing needs to pray five time a day and possibly wear a Burqa. Don’t let their stark visual differences keep you from getting to know them. They are still quite FOB, and, as such, their take on the American political scene is still very malleable; they have a strong deference to native-born Americans on the topic and often listen with an intensity and a thurst for knowledge that will suprise you. Strike while the iron is hot; show them how the Repiglicans are not their friends. I guarantee you, many will listen.
23 August 2006, on 2:45 am
Godsarefake: I can’t disagree. I have spent time in Arab coffee houses in San Francisco and Oakland. A number of Arabs I know, from places as *gasp* radical as Iran, are even atheists. I know one fella who was a prof at Tehran University for years and has amazing stories to tell (his brother was also tragically killed as a bystander in the Iran/Iraq War).
The situation is complex in the extreme. I am fine with moderate Muslims. I am fine with moderate ANYTHING. What I am not fine with is them coming into our countries and creating a growing culture of intolerance by attrition. THAT I will fight.
So, thanks for pointing that out. And probably most as yet will listen to your reason. But I DO have a problem with some of their culture.
You tell your little girl she is less than a man, you tell her she has to cover her body parts when a man does not. You force her into a submissive role. Fine. Do that within your own borders. Bring it here, and I will fight you.
Intolerance must not be tolerated.
23 August 2006, on 5:12 am
LOL @ the first image, but at the same time it’s scary that those people don’t see a correlation. But I don’t really get who that attractive man in the middle is supposed to be.
But to the topic at hand, why do people still believe this stuff? I mean I was a liberal Christian (read: never actually read the Bible but liked the idea of Heaven) for years, but I don’t get how someone could actually read that stuff and still believe it.
I suppose we’ll have to fight the fundie domination, but I’m unsure how. Vote democrat, I suppose.
23 August 2006, on 8:48 am
Lynda, I have wondered what percentage of Orthodox Jews (and Ultra Orthodox Jews, who deny science as much as any Christian Fundy) deny an ancient earth and evolution.
I know a few that I debate with on Yahoo.
Unfortunately, I think heavily religious Jews are as progressive as Fundy Christians and Muslims.
And I’ve often commented on my blog that the Catholics seem to be the most progressive major religion when it comes to understanding scientific method and accepting scientific theory.
Here is someone who needs to get his butt booted:
http://jacklewis.net/weblog/archives/2006/08/evolutionists_f.php
23 August 2006, on 9:20 am
TAJ
Here is also this from the ADL about the same. From Pharyngula. Thanks PZ for keeping an eye out for us.
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/4877_52.htm
23 August 2006, on 9:28 am
Personally, I prefer to use the word ‘literalist’ rather than ‘fundamentalist’ - a bit more accurate i think…(And ironic that all these literalists, still can’t agree)…
Fundamentalists…are not ‘fun’…
Anyway, the sad state of affairs is that many of our citizens are growing up without much knowledge and learned value about the The Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights - the value of not having a theocracy - and to actually care, be involved and get out and vote…Much less educating immigrants about these…Although, apparantely sometimes, they fare better in this dept. than lots of our born citizens…
As far as population and immigration go….Would love to see more limits on population growth - immigration…And more of an ‘even mix’ of immigrants that do come here….
23 August 2006, on 9:38 am
I have spent time in Arab coffee houses in San Francisco and Oakland.
Just a question because I don’t know…are women allowed in these Arab coffee houses?
23 August 2006, on 10:14 am
As for the Arabs in the coffee houses…are they muslim Arabs? I I found this explanation:
“MUSLIM(also spelled Moslem) is based on the same Arabic root as Islam (s-l-m) and means one who submits to God, that is, a believer in Islam. Any person who believes in the creed and the teachings of Islam is called a Muslim. More than one billion Muslims are found in different parts of the world. They are not to be confused with Arabs, as the latter may include Christians, agnostics, or other non-Muslims.”
(All this is going to take some time to understand. I get a headache trying to sort it all out.)
I have been trying to learn more about the muslim community in America and what I have come to find is that even fundie xians don’t practice their religion 24-7. Most Muslims do.
From
http://www.gordon.army.mil/eoo/arab.htm
Islam may seem exotic or even extreme in the modern world. Perhaps this is because religion does not dominate everyday life in the West today, whereas Muslims have religion always uppermost in their minds.
The above link is a concise article that is broken down and organized very well for us.
23 August 2006, on 10:43 am
Zooplah, I think the guy in the middle is murdered Dutch filmmaker, Theo Van Gogh but that’s just a guess.
We have these ridiculous extremes, from the burqa/chador, on one hand, to nine and ten year old girls dressed like Britney Spears- or the creepy pageantry of Jon Benet Ramsey, on the other. Obviously, we opt for the latter because it’s freedom but freedom, more so than the alternative, demands individual responsibility, which we abdicate when we try to be our children’s friends rather than their parents. So, freedom, when given to those who aren’t prepared for the responsibility that goes with it, is essentially wasted.
23 August 2006, on 1:33 pm
Lynda, Protestants in this country used to say the same thing about Catholics, that their loyalty to the Pope would trump their loyalty to America.
23 August 2006, on 3:34 pm
Sean,
I totally agree with you — intolerance is, well, intolerable.
Certainly, there is a lot of it, religious and otherwise, to fight in the Muslim community. I just wanted to encourage some more f2f contact. Despite their intolerances, and outright fear of Americans, its been my experience they really want to connect with us better. Feel free to insert your favorite cliche here, but the best way to fight intolerance is still getting to know someone better.
23 August 2006, on 4:14 pm
Star,
As for the Arabs in the coffee houses…are they muslim
My experiences were exclusively with Arab muslims and on occasional a Persian muslim. I know they exist, but I have never met a non-muslim Arab. Plenty of Christian Turks, Christian Persians, and even a Christian Palestinian — but never a Christian Arab. I agree, it gives me a headache as well.
23 August 2006, on 4:16 pm
Godsarefake - Do they allow women into these coffee houses or are they prohibited?
23 August 2006, on 4:42 pm
Star, sorry, I missed when you asked that earlier — I am still playing catch up. The coffee houses seemed to be exclusively the domain of men (except for the occasional belly dancer or wife/daughter helping out with the family biz). I understand since my days of hanging out, Hooka bars have become quite trendy places for Americans in some part of the US, however, so perhaps that is no longer the case.
23 August 2006, on 6:08 pm
“However, an American Muslim will always place his first allegiance with Islam and Allah, not America.
So do a lot of American Jews feel more beholden to Israel than America. It’s not quite the same thing but it’s still wrong when a foreign power has undue influence on our foreign policy- especially when that foreign policy includes bankrolling and arming that foreign nation at the expense of the enmity of the rest of the region.
I used to buy my weed from a Palestinian immigrant who thought he was a playa.
23 August 2006, on 6:34 pm
However, an American Muslim will always place his first allegiance with Islam and Allah, not America.
So do a lot of American Jews feel more beholden to Israel than America.
…don’t forget the Catholic’s with their Pope.
23 August 2006, on 6:35 pm
For the photo go here; I think it is the photographer? Not Theo.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/doublevelvet/97874353/
I picked it off of flikr, I tried to get the writing to stick when I posted but it wouldn’t. Good new word.
23 August 2006, on 9:28 pm
Godsarefake,
You forgot to mention the baptists with lawd jeezus, etc….
23 August 2006, on 11:04 pm
Naw I didn’t forget him, Russman, the lawd Jeezus is American, don’t ya know?
24 August 2006, on 3:20 pm
I agree with Sean, intolerance should not be tolerated; I also agree with Godsarefake, though, that we should attempt more personal contact with muslim immigrants. As a woman, however, I don’t know how possible that would be for me, especially with the more orthodox ones, and one of you guys would hardly be able to have much contact with muslim women. Seems a little tricky…
24 August 2006, on 3:32 pm
I agree, Eve, and, you are absolutely right, no one has access to super orthodox muslims (they’re like the Hassids in LA and NY, they don’t talk anyone but their own if they can help it) — but don’t assuma a Burqa=othodox. Many very progressive women muslims still wear burqas. Simply start shopping in the muslim region of town. The little Halaal Grocery stores and their bakeries are almost exclusively the domain of women. While you may run into a lot of people who don’t (or won’t) speak English, and they will invariably be rude to you at first, they will warm up over time… and you will find some of the best baklava you have ever tried.
24 August 2006, on 5:33 pm
Thank you for the tip, Gods - and I *do* like a good baklava!
4 September 2006, on 11:29 pm
# stardust Says:
August 23rd, 2006 at 9:38 am EST
I have spent time in Arab coffee houses in San Francisco and Oakland.
Just a question because I don’t know…are women allowed in these Arab coffee houses?
Actually, in the Arab coffee houses in San Francisco and Oakland, I have seen no prejudice against women. But these are really progressive towns. Probably the most progressive in the U.S.
You see guys sitting all day playing chess, but you do see women, some of them scantily dressed, coming and going without a hassle.