Gladraggers and Their Lies of God
27 October 2006 by jimmer
First I must state that any talk of god that is anything but speculative takes that talk into the realm of lies. Anything said that places the believer in harms way because of those lies is really nothing more than the status quo being fulfilled. That status quo is the subordination of the people by the elite power of authority. In many cases it is only the church. In other cases it is the church and politics. Always with the same goal and that is, you lose we win and if you do not do as we say you will be punished. Punished either immediately or for eternity.Newt Gingrich is baaaack. His new book “Rediscovering God in America”. More B.S. “After resigning his seat (US House of Reps) under pressure from several sides, Gingrich has maintained a career as a political analyst and consultant, and continues to write works related to government and other subjects such as “historical fiction.”
An excerpt From The Americans United for Separation of Church and State;
Brody strolled through the nation’s capitol with Catherine Millard, founder and director of Christian Heritage Tours. Millard, Brody said “knows more than anyone how God has been systematically removed from the public square.” Standing in front of the nation’s highest court, Millard told viewers that “God’s stamp is on this nation’s capitol [and] the Supreme Court is essential to showing forth God’s glory over this nation.”
In reality, the Court’s architecture suggests that the justices are not at all concerned with promoting “God’s glory.” The building’s most prominent inscriptions are “Justice Guardian of Liberty” and “Equal Justice Under Law;” the two phrases are carved on the east and west pediments. The word “God” appears nowhere in or on the building.
(More of the article here.)
Next from the article “Is God Dead? Atheism finds a market in the U.S. (Thanks to Naomi)
Paul Kurtz, founder of the Council for Secular Humanism and publisher of Free Inquiry magazine, said, “The American public is really disturbed about the role of religion in U.S. government policy, particularly with the Bush administration and the breakdown of church-state separation, and secondly with the conflict in the Mideast.”
They are turning to free thought and secular humanism and publishers have recognized a taste for that, he added.
That is the good news but get a load of this crap ;
Dr. Timothy Larsen, professor of theology at Wheaton College in Illinois, says any growth in interest in atheism is a reflection of the strength of religion — the former being a parasite that feeds off the latter.
(The complete article is here.)
Why have the religious become obsessed with control and domination of the world? They have been at it for thousands of years and still have a command of the population at large. However their grasp is tenuous and they are losing it slowly but surely. As more and more people become educated they are exposed to different cultures and philosophies. As the free press is able to operate, more and more people are subjected to the truth. Even when the truth is spun into something it is not. Eventually the truth wins out. The truth of Iraq was first, God told George to do it for WMD’s. Then terrorism. Now we know it to be a great big lie of an ignorant coward and his support staff composed of religious leaders of an extreme right persuasion and his benefactors waiting for their payout. The “might is right” lie is being exposed and the lines of loyalty are collapsing. Newt Gingrich is back and he fits right in.
How can even the most religious person consider the comment by Dr. Larsen to have any merit? He claims that Atheism is a parasite to religion. When in fact Religion is the parasite of all modern societies. We have no need to acquiesce to such blatant stupidity. We have the foundation of reason to rely on and the religious have zip. For the resources at their disposal the religious have Nothing but millennia of lies and tortures and waste of human life. For the resources that include up to 75% of the population they sure do suffer from a lack of vision. They have not one bit of real concern for their fellow man unless he or she are part of the same flock. They voted for a man who claimed to be a godly man and they supported him. 5 years later they know they have been sold out. They have been silenced by their own humiliation of having supported a liar the likes of which the nation had not seen and hopefully will never see again.
Day after day the religious retreat deeper into their own fantasy life. And Day after day they realize they’ve been chumped. We are the voice of reason and truth and eventually we will win out over the fantasies. The scientific community which is heavily Atheistic has produced more good for mankind in a few hundred years than all of religion since it’s inception. The scientific community is about 5-7 million men and women. The religious community is up to 250 million people in the U.S.. How many of those lives are wasted on the phony beliefs that it isn’t what you do with your life but how you live it for god?
27 October 2006, on 3:29 am
The sad fact is that religious people who truly believe are delusional psychotics in need of sympathetic psychiatric intervention, though psychotics, as any psychiatrist will advise you, are amongst the most intractable patients they have to deal with. Fortunately there are some effective anti-psychotic medications available nowadays, risperidone being the drug of choice, so perhaps the kindest thing would be to arrange a mass-medication programme for these poor sick fools.
Having said that, there are many who profess to believe (in god) who are not psychotic (or, more precisely, not yet psychotic, though that is likely to develop the more effort they put into their fantasy lifestyle), and that is where your connection between power and religion comes in. Non-psychotic ‘religious believers’ are those who use religion as a means of gaining self-esteem, power, and financial gain for themselves, and that is why they always try to infiltrate and subvert the organs of state power, such as the government, the legislature, education, and other public bodies. These people are truly dangerous, and are the real terrorists in our midst.
As for Dr. Timothy Larsen, Professor of Theology at Wheaton College in Illinois, nothing anyone who holds a chair of theology should be taken seriously, since anyone who can waste their entire life teaching the so-called ’science of god’ is a complete and utter intellectual lightweight and a joke as a human being. Further, it marks Prof Larsen down as either an innocent delusional psychotic or a manipulative, self-serving exploiter of the more credulous. However, since it is unlikely that Larsen will admit to being psychotic, then he will have effectively admitted to be just another unscrupulous fraudster and scoundrel.
Another thing, if Prof Larsen wants to debate the issue, I’ll be happy to indulge him in my consulting room at any time.
27 October 2006, on 5:10 am
Doing a re-post but felt it applied and said what I want to say:
Religion (be it godless communism, Catholicism, or whatever dogmatic cult) continues to exist because:
1. it’s is big business (follow the $$)
2. it can still make “kings” who have in turn bestowed a stamp of untouchability on it
3. indoctrination comes early in life in its ways an punishments and thus it instills guilt and shame about bucking or questioning any concept, or its mores, or worse yet denying a need or love for some form of it
4. indoctrination structures and mechanisms have been well honed
5. it provides (many times just illustionary) social benefits and social support
6. the snake oil it sells is very appealing; it makes scary things seem less scary, and people in hard times seem less alone
8. it provides an easy stamp of respectability and purpose to people
9. it gets you sympathy and compassion when you’ve been a heel
10.it is an easy path for those that cannot face life or who’d rather not think through things for themselves
11. it does not shun the intellectually lazy or educationally challenged (indeed, they’re the flock – recruited and nurtured)
12. it perpetuates itself by not really solving problems but by acting like it does (e.g., Mother Theresa – a poster child for the perpetuators of poverty)
13. it’s is big business (follow the $$)
14. it can still make “kings”
Religions have always been built by the powerful to enhance their power or seize power over the masses. But religion is a “Frankenstein” – very dangerous to all who use it – and especially to those that think they can use it for “free.”
It is the scourge of the modern world. It knows no real master and serves the not the greater good. We really need to wean ourselves off it, and to cast the pigs possessed by the demons of religion off the cliff into the sea! It will happen, just not in our lifetimes. However we need to do our part in the progression to a saner, more just, freer, and kinder world.
27 October 2006, on 7:45 am
It amazes me that in our so-called “modern world”, religion can still have such a strong foothold. I agree with ConcernedJoe’s comments above, but it still boggles the mind to think that such a large percentage of the population is so gullible. Is it fear, stupidity, a combination of both, or something else?
Being a reformed xian, I can only look back in shame at how gullible I was when I was younger. Of course, being a child, I didn’t know any better than accepting what I was told. I think it’s a shame that so many others cannot look critically at their superstitions and realize that they are wasting their time and money on empty threats and promises.
27 October 2006, on 8:23 am
I think you might need to fix the second link in the post - it has the page stretched out horizontaly on my browser. Its very hard to read.
27 October 2006, on 9:45 am
In an interview with Penn Jillette, Richard Dawkins said that, when he first wrote “The Selfish Gene” thirty years ago, he was pretty convinced that religion was on it’s way out and, thus, essentially confined himself to the science in his writings. He said that he was more than a little disturbed that, all this time later, he was compelled to write a book like “The God Delusion”. It’s a good interview by a coconspirator- in Penn, give it a listen.
I find it less troubling philosophically, where I see it- the increase in religious extremity and ardor, as the inevitable kicking and screaming, hissing and spitting, of the wounded beast with the toddler’s mind. Obviously, in practice, right in my face and infecting the American body politic, sitting in the motherfucking
OffalOval Office, it’s infuriating on one level, embarrassing on another, and hysterically funny- because the players are so enthusiastically pathetic.The whole notion of atheism as some sort of parasite on religion is particularly amusing given the viral nature of the gawd meme in the immune deficient- or undeveloped, human mind.
Is it true that, if you feed the gullible Alka-Seltzer, they will explode?
27 October 2006, on 10:29 am
Dr. Timothy Larsen, professor of theology at Wheaton College in Illinois, says any growth in interest in atheism is a reflection of the strength of religion — the former being a parasite that feeds off the latter.
They always pull this one out of their asshats when threatened in a desperate attempt keep the sheeple from straying from the flock.
Wheaton College is an evangelical “holy” and “pious” interdemoninational xian college “For Christ and His Kingdom”. It’s a small college in the burbs of Chicago. Mostly “churchy-type” students attend there.
27 October 2006, on 10:34 am
Hello,
We are a group of students from Dallas Christian College in an Introduction to Philosophy class. We were recently given an assignment to go on an atheistic blog and ask a few questions of the blogger. We are by no means trying to push anything on you, we merely were wondering what your responses to these questions are. We would really appreciate your insight and we thank you for your time.
Here are the questions:
1) How do you find meaning in life?
and
2) Have you developed a belief system?
Thanks again for your time.
- Spence, Daniel, and Chris
27 October 2006, on 10:43 am
Spence, Daniel and Chris,
“Life is without meaning. You bring the meaning to it. The meaning of life is Whatever you ascribe it to be. Being alive is the meaning.” Joseph Campbell
2. I have belief and confidence in myself, to look to myself, family and loved ones as a source of strength. Humans do not need an invisible, imaginary crutch. Even with religion, humans must do things for themselves. Gawd helps those who help themselves actually means there is no god, you are on your own. Things we do not have any control over, we must deal with reaching into our inner strength (that comes from our mental makeup) and those around us who we care about.
27 October 2006, on 11:03 am
Will
It works OK on my browser. Sometimes IE will do that and I agree it is a pain.
S,D,C
I agree with Stardust. You are the only one who can give life meaning. So far as a belief system? Living life according to reason and observation will bring more rewards and success than blindly following any particular doctrine or system. Especially when that system has no basis in reality.
27 October 2006, on 11:17 am
1) How do you find meaning in life?
In many ways. Most of which is through contemplation. Of course I also look at things from the perspective that life is what you make it, and since we only have one chance, it better be good. Life has taken on even greater meaning for me now that I’ve come to terms with what death really means. The thought of completely ceasing to be is a very humbling and troubling thought, and I understand now why so many people want to latch onto the idea that you don’t really die, you just go somewhere else. No one wants to die, no one wants to cease to exist, but the sad fact is, that we do. And when we do we get no second chances, so we better live well and live often.
If you can’t find any meaning in this life, then you just aren’t looking hard enough, and spending too much time fantasing about some non existant paradise that only let’s you in when you’re dead.
2) Have you developed a belief system?
In what way? This is a very vague question, and perhaps a loaded one at that. By answering this by saying I believe in whatever, I have essentially opened myself up to having one say that even atheists need something to believe in.
That said, I don’t believe much in anything. But if you wanted I suppose you could qualify this as a belief system: Smaller government, and not doing anything that would harm another person, or make me a threat to said person.
27 October 2006, on 11:22 am
Spence Daniel and Chris
I forgot to add that it is important for you to read the upper right of the page, “Want to comment, Read this first”. We are not likely to indulge xians who come by with “just” a question that leads to anything more than polite discussion. We are not tolerant of trolls. We call it asshatting when we respond to such people in a specific and humorous manner. If you violate our trust and rules you too will see what that means. Spend a little bit of time reading through the posts and comments. That should give you a good idea of what we think.
27 October 2006, on 11:58 am
Students,
“Meaning” in life is all around us, from the orchids that mimic the sexual attributes of a female wasp so as to be pollinated by the aroused males to the poetry of quantum physics.
“Meaning” of life is in the living of it, in the love given and received from friends, family, lovers, and from striving to be accountable for more than the materials one has accumulated.
“Meaning” is recognizing the brevity of this life and vowing to waste not one minute of it placing bets on some nebulous eternity- or cowering in fear of the flipside of that wager.
“Meaning” is in taking individual responsibility for one’s mistakes- and in the humility of allowing one’s good deeds to remain anonymous. It’s doing good, helping one another simply because someone is in need and not out of some high-stakes carrot/stick prodding.
“Meaning” is in the study of the whole of human history, watching as the rise of gods unfolded among us to explain- to put a name to, the dark, the unknown, and as those same gods became one and the one shrank in proportion to the accumulation of collective knowledge.
“Meaning” is in standing alert and refreshed as living proof that the absence of god is not evil, is not chaos, is not a vacuum, and is not anything but metaphysical maturity.
Religion, at this juncture, has become a ball and chain on the progress of mankind, the last catalyst for oppression and hatred, the last refuge for the intellectually lazy and the morally timid.
As for belief, I believe what my senses can detect, what my mind can cogitate, calculate, and prove to beyond a reasonable doubt.
I believe in justice, in Jesus’ notion of being judged by how one treats the least among us.
I believe in the Hippocratic “First, do no harm…”.
I believe in Tom Waits and King Buzzo.
I believe that, while religion may have served a purpose in the organization and discipline necessary for large numbers of humans living in close quarters, it has decidedly outlived it’s usefulness.
And, though it may not seem so, I haven’t the slightest problem with any individual’s personal method for making sense of the world- religious or otherwise, until they try to force it on me via it’s intrusion into my government, my doorstep, my pants.
27 October 2006, on 11:59 am
Oh, and Jimmer, is that the Village People in your photo?
27 October 2006, on 12:15 pm
“Will Says:
October 27th, 2006 at 8:23 am
I think you might need to fix the second link in the post - it has the page stretched out horizontaly on my browser. Its very hard to read. ”
Here, too. I had to paste in Word to be able to read this post. And every other post on this page.
27 October 2006, on 12:24 pm
“We are the voice of reason and truth and eventually we will win out over the fantasies. The scientific community which is heavily Atheistic has produced more good for mankind in a few hundred years than all of religion since it’s inception.”
I find this statement overly optimistic. How much time do you think we have left? It’s much shorter than you seem to realize.
Global warming, nuclear weapons proliferation, over-population, the evolution of bacterial agents and water pollution will more than likely wipe out the human population long before religion finds its resting place on the dung heap of human inventions.
27 October 2006, on 12:29 pm
We just need to “fart harder”.
YouTube - felk gets religion
27 October 2006, on 12:41 pm
RDZ, you’re a poet and a scholar. Here I was trying to formulate a response and then I see your’s, better than I could have said it.
27 October 2006, on 12:45 pm
If anyone is having browser problems. Go to the next link and download Mozilla 2.0. You may need to scroll down to find it.
http://www.danielcurran.com/
My IE browser was acting up since last night. I can’t read it the way it is so download Mozilla by firefox and prob. solved. It is different but nicer, also all your bookmarks go through and you do nothing. It has a nicer layout as well and it saves your front page.
27 October 2006, on 12:58 pm
RDZ
We should put that right into the FAQ. Good, Clear, Concise. Can’t get any better than that. Also NOT the village people but I like that guy in the back with the pointy hood. Gladraggers Are kind of like pornographers (and there’s nothing wrong with that)You only know them when you see them. Mostly people who wear historic garb in today’s modern society as a means of separating themselves from the common. But not artists. Only people who dress that way and do it with serious intent.
27 October 2006, on 1:23 pm
Yes, I know all about Firefox. I wish I could download and use Firefox at work, but I can’t. The whole front page is pretty much unreadable. I went to tinyurl and this: http://tinyurl.com/yl8zgx will go to the same page.
27 October 2006, on 1:47 pm
Lybda wrote: “I find this statement overly optimistic. How much time do you think we have left? It’s much shorter than you seem to realize.
Global warming, nuclear weapons proliferation, over-population, the evolution of bacterial agents and water pollution will more than likely wipe out the human population long before religion finds its resting place on the dung heap of human inventions.”
Since human-induced global warming is a fantasy, as much as belief in gawd, I don’t see this as a factor. None of these things will wipe us out. Might surely cull the herd a great deal, but not wipe us out.
Hasn’t every era had its doomsayers? This is no different.
27 October 2006, on 2:49 pm
RDZ, those were very beautiful words, and very true.
Students,
1) How do you find meaning in life?
I find meaning in life by looking at the way I feel about how I have lived. I look at my children, who are happy and healthy free thinkers. I examine the impact I am leaving on the world when I die. Humans can be immortal; we are immortal as long as we are remembered by those who carry on life after we die. My find meaning in art, science, and the human experience. Unlike xians, I am living the one life that I have to the fullest.
2) Have you developed a belief system?
Do you mean, in place of a religion? One thing to understand is that “atheist” means “without belief in a deity or deities.” So, every one reading and commenting on this blog can have different beliefs. It is sometimes questioned how we are connected by only our lack of believe in something, but that is technically the case. So, any statements of beliefs by anyone here cannot be directly applied to all other atheists. Every atheist is different. If, by “belief,” you mean, a set of ideals by which I live my life, perhaps thoughts about what I think is best, then the answer is, “Of course.”
- All things are connected by quantum physics. The (caloric) energy in corn goes into the chicken, the energy in the chicken, goes into me when I eat it, when I die, it goes into the microbes and scavengers. There is a cycle and we are all connected.
- We are human animals. We cannot do anything to the earth that isn’t natural. Everything we do is natural and it would be impossible for us to act unnaturally, as it would be impossible for a lion or a tree. (This doesn’t mean that we should litter and pollute; I mean, I prefer a non-polluted city without smog. But, that’s just perference.)
- We live on in our lasting deeds and the memories of those who love and respect us.
- Religious beliefs belong in one’s home, in private places. This is stated by Jesus when he instructs people to pray in private, in an inner room or closet of their home. We vocalize loudly because, if we don’t, the religious will walk all over us. When we have secured the government and public life away from the religious, we will have no more need to be perceived as “angry atheists,” which we usually aren’t.
- On my own property, I should be allowed to do whatever I like, so long as it does not a)keep another individual from living life to the fullest and b)does not keep another individual from using his/her own property as he/she likes. And it harm none, do as ye will. (Borrowed from Wicca, obviously.) Murder, rape, theft, etc. fall into the category of keeping others from living their lives/using their property to the fullest.
- Knowledge is power. Learning should continue forever. You are never too old or too deep to change your mind.
- Being happy with myself is all I can hope for. I cannot please everyone, so I must, at least, please myself.
- We should learn from history, as those who don’t are doomed to repeat it.
These are just random parts that somehow escaped my mind and ended up on the Internet. There is much more to me, and it should be assumed that, on the Internet, what you see is only one aspect of the person in question. Thank you for asking in a polite manner. I hope your politeness continues.
27 October 2006, on 3:42 pm
We thank you all very much for your comments on our two questions. We apologize for the confusion on the question concerning the belief system. To clarify: By belief system we are asking what is your organized set of ideas/ideals that cause you to think and act in the way that you do and what is the origin of those beliefs. Once again thank you and we appreciate all feedback that we have received and will receive.
27 October 2006, on 3:43 pm
Here are the questions:
1) How do you find meaning in life?
and
2) Have you developed a belief system?
Thanks again for your time.
Why does life need meaning? The universe doesn’t care whether or not we exist, or what happens to us.
Belief system about what? Vague question. I can only assume you’re referring back to question #1, a belief system about the meaning of life. I don’t believe life has a meaning. As humans we always want to attribute meanings to things whether there is one or not. Such as people dying in car accidents. The REASON the accident occurred is because someone screwed up, or a piece of equipment failed. Whether there is any meaning behind it is, in my opinion, irrelevant. Is there any great difference between the death of a microbe and the death of a human? In the cosmic scheme of things, not a whit. Does that mean I’m heartless and don’t care if people die? Not at all. When my mother committed suicide due to terminal cancer 16 years ago, I was left empty, but I understood why she did it, and do not blame her for doing so. I have never really been able to grieve about it, because it’s what she wanted, therefore that can’t be bad. My only regret is that I didn’t get to say goodbye.
Now, as to whether a belief system would help me cope with such a thing? I don’t see how, especially not a supernatural belief system that doesn’t explain a damn thing, especially not why gawd likes the “sweet savour” of roasted farm animals, or why he thinks rape victims should be put to death because they didn’t “cry out”.
Now that I’ve bared my soul to everyone, time to go play some Grand Theft Auto
27 October 2006, on 3:47 pm
Bean wrote: “- We are human animals. We cannot do anything to the earth that isn’t natural. Everything we do is natural and it would be impossible for us to act unnaturally, as it would be impossible for a lion or a tree. (This doesn’t mean that we should litter and pollute; I mean, I prefer a non-polluted city without smog. But, that’s just perference.)”
I’ve always felt this way too. We’re part of nature. We may think we’re destructive but a few well-placed volcanoes, eathquakes, meteorites, comets, etc can make what we’ve done miniscule in comparison.
27 October 2006, on 4:01 pm
By belief system we are asking what is your organized set of ideas/ideals that cause you to think and act in the way that you do and what is the origin of those beliefs.
Basically, it all comes down to respect and treating people how I would like to be treated. Follow the laws of the society which are in place to maintain order and peace, safety for all citizens. No magical sky daddy sets these rules. Humans create rules for members of society to live by for the welfare of everyone in that society. If people break the laws, there are penalties to pay…arrested, thrown in jail, executions. And it’s all real…unlike the xian mythology with an imaginary sky daddy “judge”, and a fantasy reward system of afterlife heaven and hell.
(Why do I sense impending proseltyzing about to surface?)
27 October 2006, on 4:16 pm
Revenant wrote: Since human-induced global warming is a fantasy
While it has not been completely and 100% proven to date, there is enough evidence to make it 95% likely that current global warming trends are human-induced. There is an amazing computer model being used by scientists that indicates significant human involvement in the sharp spike in global warming. It is not a fantasy. Ask any Inuit!
Also written by Revenant: None of these things will wipe us out. Might surely cull the herd a great deal, but not wipe us out.
Extinctions happen. Humans are as vulnerable as any species to extinction and it is wise not to forget this fact. It is very difficult for humans with their rather slow rate of maturity to outrun the evolution of bacteria which can much more rapidly adapt to conditions. Humans are very good at adapting but not invincible. The fairy tale endings seen in most science fiction movies are as hopeful as religious beliefs in heaven.
27 October 2006, on 4:17 pm
Friends,
I am Spence from the DCC group. I am not with my other partners on the assignment right now, so I wanted to make sure you know that this comment is just me and seperate from our task.
It should first be said that I appreciate your kindness in answering our question. It seems like too often people quickly become hostile with people who do not agree with them, and I am thankful that this hasn’t been the case. I’d like to engage this discussion further under the understanding that I respect both you and your position, and that I wish to be just as kindhearted in my posts as you have been in yours.
I am also happy to see a few of you speak of Christ and the example that he actually set during his time with his beliefs. I totally agree with you that in general, Christians have swayed from this example. I admit that there are situations and areas where people have hurt civilization “in the name Christ,” and apologize the best I can for that.
I’d like to further discuss some areas where I do not fully understand your views. Before I was a Christian, I was ignorant. I am not calling non-christians ignorant, but specifically referring to myself. I just ignored the whole concept of God. Neither you nor I can claim that ignorance now (which is a complement to both of us), as we have both addressed the concept.
Here are some areas where I would appreciate to better know and understand your thoughts:
1) Religion is nothing but a ball and chain - Now in many instances I would agree with you that many modernized, often corrupt forms of religion have held back and perhaps even set back society, but this statement is such a generalization. There are many churches that are the most helpful organizations for feeding the poor in their area. Many churches are at the forefront of peace keeping and protecting rights in countries where people are oppressed. (I think to see the church at its best, sadly, one is going to have to look outside america).
I admit that it would be an over-generalization (an extreme one) to say that all religious people/organizations are doing society and man (and God if he exists) good, but do you think it also might be an overgeneralization to say they are all balls and chains?
2) Now, in my admittance of what could probably be called failure on the part of the church (alright there’s definately been failure), I have another inquiry. Should God and Christ be disproved or their possiblities forsaken merely on account of people who claim to act in their names?
For instance, imagine you were a peaceable man who spent all of his life attending to the sick, helping the poor, and spending time with those lonely people society deemed worthless. Thousands of years after your life, a group of people started to do the opposite in your name. They used you to control society in ways that are very uncharacteristic of you. Then people start denouncing you and what you stood for.
It just seems to me that often athiests denounce the concept of Christ based on the actions of people who are obviously not following in his footsteps. They may claim his name, but they are most utterly “using it in vain”. So pinpointing this area of agression and anger against Christ, do you think perhaps it is unjustified?
Again I do not mean to offend or push anything on anyone. I have tried to avoid “witnessing” or trying to win anyone over in the way I posed my questions. My goal in this is to understand the way you perceive these things, not to change it.
Your time is appreciated, and the discussion is enjoyable,
Spence
27 October 2006, on 4:22 pm
Students
As far as misunderstanding you? No we did not.
As atheists we do not share a set of beliefs. Many of us subscribe to the scientific method and some do not. Atheism is not a religion it is not even a belief system of it’s own. My thoughts are that we have the same ideas of how to live a life well lived except we do not give any recognition to a god. As far as the origins go I guess it started when man stood upright and became self-aware. Maybe as long ago as 50,000 years. When humans got together to defend their families and developed codes of honor. Everything that the religious believe to be part of the goodness of god I believe is the true nature of humans and we express it as such. We give credit where credit is due and there is no god who deserves any mention in our lives.
Stardust
Me too.lol
27 October 2006, on 4:24 pm
By belief system we are asking what is your organized set of ideas/ideals that cause you to think and act in the way that you do and what is the origin of those beliefs.
My belief system is roughly:
Do what you want without hurting others.
Treat others as you would want to be treated.
We only live once so try and leave things better than you found them.
Don’t do things to take away other people’s ability to be happy, as long as that doesn’t do direct harm to people.
Never take yourself too seriously.
27 October 2006, on 4:26 pm
I knew it was coming, folks!
Spence says: Again I do not mean to offend or push anything on anyone. I have tried to avoid “witnessing” or trying to win anyone over in the way I posed my questions. My goal in this is to understand the way you perceive these things, not to change it.
Bullshit. I have a question now Spence…why do xians always lie about their intentions? It is the whole goal of xianity to convert non-believers to their mythology. Your paragraph I have pasted above is almost word-for-word what we hear every time we let most xians in the door.
27 October 2006, on 4:30 pm
Stardust
Me too.lol
Jimmer, they must think we are stupid, or naiive, or have never been exposed to their tactics before. They don’t realize that many of us here were xians at one time and know all the tricks! I feel assimilation attempts building via Comcast transmissions!!!
27 October 2006, on 4:33 pm
2) Now, in my admittance of what could probably be called failure on the part of the church (alright there’s definately been failure), I have another inquiry. Should God and Christ be disproved or their possiblities forsaken merely on account of people who claim to act in their names?
Spencer, I think part of this question is based on a common misperception about atheists. We do not reject God (or Allah, or Buddha, or Vishnu, etc.). We reject the very notion that there is a god. Now this is an important distinction. I came to atheism, not as a result of the actions of religious people, but because I realized there was absolutely no verifiable proof for this thing which I had believed in and that life made more sense without it. While I find the actions that people commit in the name of their religious beliefs to often be deplorable, those actions enough were not enough to turn me away from my previous belief. In a sense, I merely stopped believing and the world made a lot more sense.
27 October 2006, on 4:36 pm
Stardust -
I’m sorry… where did I witness?
Like honestly… I am seriously trying my hardest not to.
I feel like you were expecting us to witness so much that you were willing to take anything I typed and throw that claim in our face…
You were waiting for it (You typed: Why do I sense impending proseltyzing about to surface?)
I don’t think that I did it. My questions were not about you excepting the Lord, they were not about why you don’t except the Lord. They first one was about society and the churches influence in it, the second was about the concept of Christ and the churches negative reflection on it…
Honestly, I am sorry you feel like I am trying to shove something down your throat, but I tried to be as non-hostile and unoffensive as I could, and I am met with “Bullshit…” and “why are you trying to convert us”
If you presume that I am trying to convert you, then we will never be able to have intelligent conversation about things. You are pushing your presumptions about Christians on me, and I know that you would not appreciate if I presumed things about you.
Sorry you feel encroached upon,
Spence
27 October 2006, on 4:37 pm
Spence, Daniel, and Chris:
1) How do you find meaning in life?
I have quit looking for meaning in life. I am. Enjoyment of this life is my focus and preoccupation.
The most important passage ever written in the Bible was “I am that I am.” Religious people never seem to ask WHY does God exist. How does God find meaning in life? What is God’s purpose in being?
There doesn’t seem to be any purpose to god or to the universe. Life has no purpose, no aim, no significance outside of what we place on it for our own reasons.
2) Have you developed a belief system?
Short answer — yes.
One cannot exist without believing something. That belief system for me involves observation and experimentation, as well as thoughtful examination of the experiments and observations of others (predominantly scientists), to come to a reasonable understanding of the world in which I live. This belief system will be discarded if another more trustworthy system presents itself. I certainly would never consider dying for any belief system. Again, enjoyment of life is my primary concern.
27 October 2006, on 4:44 pm
King Retard -
Thank you, that was a very informative reply. I enjoyed better understanding why you have chosen to adhere to athiesm. The reasoning of it just seems to make more sense seems practical.
Otherwise, I did not mean to bring about hostility on this blog, but if I cannot make simple non-offensive inquiries about your belief system without being attacked, I will resign from my hopes of better understanding.
Stardust said (quoting Campbell): Life is whatever you ascribe it to be.
Does that not count for me?
Sincerely,
Spence
27 October 2006, on 4:47 pm
I’m sorry… where did I witness?
Spence: I didn’t say you did yet…I said I could feel it approaching. I have experienced “visits” like this too many times not to know how things evolve…or go downhill.
Like honestly… I am seriously trying my hardest not to.
What is your purpose here then? We have answered your original quesitons for school. So, why are you pushing for more? And be honest…if you can. I know it’s hard.
Honestly, I am sorry you feel like I am trying to shove something down your throat
Then what is your purpose here? You can read the archives and get what you are looking for for school purposes. There are a few years worth of comments here.
If you presume that I am trying to convert you, then we will never be able to have intelligent conversation about things.
Your questions were leading somewhere…like I have said, I have been through this too many times not to recognize it.
Sorry you feel encroached upon,
This is also the persecution thing that crops up when you realize we know what xians are trying to do.
Xians come here, pretend to be our “friend” and it always evolves to witnessing to us…I am just nipping that in the bud.
You are welcome to any discussion on this website…politics, current events but xians don’t usually seem too interested in all that.
27 October 2006, on 4:48 pm
Lynda wrote: “While it has not been completely and 100% proven to date, there is enough evidence to make it 95% likely that current global warming trends are human-induced. There is an amazing computer model being used by scientists that indicates significant human involvement in the sharp spike in global warming. It is not a fantasy. Ask any Inuit!”
Actually there are many computer models in use and their track records are pretty dismal. They hinge upon the collaborative forcing of CO2 and Water Vapor (the theory being that CO2 warming will cause a feedback loop of water vapor warming into a “runaway greenhouse effect”). The problem is, there is no evidence to suggest that such a thing has or can happen. If it can happen, it would have happened long ago and the earth would never have recovered. Why we should believe that it can happen now doesn’t make any sense. There have been times in the historic past where atmospheric CO2 levels were ten times what they are now, yet the earth was at one of its coldest known points.
I did NOT say that climate isn’t changing, it’s constantly changing, if it didn’t, then we’d be in trouble. I’m saying that there is still zero proof that any changes are primarily, or even significantly, human-induced. Like believing in gawd, the science isn’t there. As for the Inuit, if they have something besides anecdotal evidence, then bring it on. FYI, just because ice flows and glaciers are melting doesn’t mean it’s caused by humans, they’ve been melting for thousands of years. The Pacific Northwest was shaped by advancing and receding glaciers, obviously they had to have melted quite significantly for there to be the civilization we have now. Alarmism that states they’re melting so much faster now just isn’t borne out by the facts. We’re just much more aware of the melting now than we ever were.
“Extinctions happen. Humans are as vulnerable as any species to extinction and it is wise not to forget this fact. It is very difficult for humans with their rather slow rate of maturity to outrun the evolution of bacteria which can much more rapidly adapt to conditions. Humans are very good at adapting but not invincible. The fairy tale endings seen in most science fiction movies are as hopeful as religious beliefs in heaven.”
I have to agree, at least in part, with this. But I think any danger bacterial extinction poses to us is due to the fact that genetically we’re not as strong as we once were. Sure, we have longer life spans, as long as we’re in our protected societies with clean water and hospitals and such. And the fact that we protect our weak, sick, injured instead of them being predated out of the gene pool has made us genetically weaker over the long haul. Of course I don’t have any proof of this, just thinking logically. We no longer adapt to our environment, but change our environment to suit us, so it stands to reason we’re evolving much more slowly than we should be.
Anyway, didn’t mean to hijack the thread. Would love to debate about AGW on my site if you’re interested. Just click my name at the top of the post!
27 October 2006, on 4:53 pm
Stardust said (quoting Campbell): Life is whatever you ascribe it to be. Does that not count for me?
Spence - Of course it does count for you, too. I am not telling you what to believe or not believe. I don’t seek xians out to deconvert them. They always find their way here, or to my personal site, or to my front door, so forgive me if I am a bit suspicious about your intentions.
27 October 2006, on 4:55 pm
Spence from DCC:
do you think it also might be an overgeneralization to say they are all balls and chains?
Yes. All religion requires one to replace critical thinking with faith and acceptance of ideas without proof or evidence. There is no evidence of god’s existence so to believe in god requires that one accept restrictions on their thinking, thus “a ball and chain”.
It just seems to me that often athiests denounce the concept of Christ based on the actions of people who are obviously not following in his footsteps.
Atheists denounce the concept of Christ because the concept is entirely unscientific and unreasonable. There is absolutely no empirical evidence to even support the existence of a christ and very little historical “evidence” to support the existence of a man named Jesus who did acts as described by the religious document entitled the New Testament Bible. The actions of Christians are irrelevant, other than to convince atheists that the miracles of a changed life or born-again character changes attributed to a holy spirit are indeed non-existent.
Again I do not mean to offend or push anything on anyone. I have tried to avoid “witnessing” or trying to win anyone over in the way I posed my questions.
I may be on my own here, but I will take you at your word, Spence. And I, likewise, have no desire to “witness” to you or change your mind. I have answered your questions honestly, with as much respect for your intelligence and thoughtfulness as I think you deserve.
Good luck with your assignment and getting the information you are seeking. It’s a big universe and there’s lots to explore and discover. It’s grand!
27 October 2006, on 5:09 pm
Spencer From DCC,
OF COURSE our beliefs except the Lard! That’s one reason we’re atheists.
27 October 2006, on 5:13 pm
Spence,
I don’t think religions are “balls and chains”, I think they’re a crutch for the weak. And not a very good crutch at that, since they don’t actually explain anything.
My lack of belief has little to do with what supposedly religious people do or don’t do, but that the god they protray to exist would even ALLOW them to do these things in his name.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t have the big sky daddy who is there to watch over you, and then blame society for abusing religion. If the big sky daddy is really there, and does nothing about it (even though he supposedly had a very active hand back in the day), that tells me he condones any actions his followers take, and even revels in their slaughter of each other.
Regardless of whether you believe the bible is the unerring word of god, can’t you see the simple absurdity in so much of the biblical chapters? Xians are infamous for quoting scripture which supports a particular position, but ignores others in the same vein. The prime example being persecution of gays. The laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are barbaric, by any standard we know today (except for muslim extremists). But asshats like Jerry “i suck balls” Falwell, and Pat “Where’s my altar boy” Robertson keep pulling barbaric anti-gay laws out of their slimy holes, while ignoring the laws requiring animal sacrifice “as a statute forever”, or selling their daughters into slavery, as the bible permits, or stoning the victims of rape to death because they didn’t cry out. How can their followers not see this hypocrisy? And even “moderate” xians who are supposedly more progressive are to blame. They also cherry-pick scripture to suit their desires. Why is the Old Testament even in the bible if it’s largely ignored??
Sorry for the tangent, folks.
27 October 2006, on 5:17 pm
Good tangent, Revenant!
27 October 2006, on 5:27 pm
Spence wrote:
What do you man “thousands of years after your life”? Didn’t Yaisuah rise from the dead and is alive today?
I don’t denounce jesus, if he even existed. I denounce the whole idea of supernatural divinity, plain and simple. Jesus supposedly said some very sensible things, which have nothing to do with the supernatural, and indeed that others had already said (after all, didn’t he spend his formative years with the Essenes of Dead Sea Scrolls fame?). What I denounce is the idea of the Virgin Birth (more suitably, Virgin Rape, making god an adulterer, now god has to be stoned to death, to follow his own laws, and so does Mary), of the resurrection, of all the supernatural garbage.
27 October 2006, on 5:33 pm
Spence wrote:
Sorry, Spence. As long as you think there exists a supernatural being that brought the universe into being and created all living things, without a micromilligram of proof, then we can’t have an intelligent discussion on the subject.
FYI, I didn’t see any attempt on your part to convert anyone or “witness”, for what it’s worth. However, your spelling and grammar could use a lot of work! lol. You used “except” which means to leave out, when you meant to use “accept”.
And did you know Freud wore a slip?
27 October 2006, on 5:40 pm
but if I cannot make simple non-offensive inquiries about your belief system without being attacked, I will resign from my hopes of better understanding.
Spence - To clarify, I wasn’t “attacking” you, I was calling things as I see them. You never responded to my statement about the “goal” of xianity being to convert non-believers and people of other faiths to your religion.
Why are you so readily willing to “resign your hopes of better understanding” of us so quickly when your intentions are being examined? You want to question us, but it’s not okay to question you?
In addition…you indirectly called atheism a “belief system” again, and we have explained that atheism is ABSENCE of a belief system/god/goddesses, etc.
27 October 2006, on 5:41 pm
Revenant, you’re right about the Inuit offering primarily anecdotal evidence. They do offer some historical and observational data to the discussion, but would not be able to give conclusions regarding the human-induced aspect of global warming. I regretted the inference almost as soon as I hit the submit button.
My enjoyment of life is reduced by dwelling on such topics as global warming so I will decline any further discussion of the topic for now. Scientists are getting paid to search out the facts and I will leave it in their capable hands. Yes, I’m very weak on the subject.
27 October 2006, on 6:22 pm
Spence said: Should God and Christ be disproved or their possiblities forsaken merely on account of people who claim to act in their names?
This sounds like the beginning of a one true xian™ argument. If someone who claims to be xian says gays need to be destroyed, aren’t they just following the babble as it is written? It would seem to me that these are the ones that are following gawd’s word, not the moderates who ignore gawd’s “inerrant” words. Again, you can’t have it both ways. Is the babble the inerrant word of God or not? If it is, why aren’t you out stoning gays this very minute? Can’t you see the absurdity of following a primitive fairy tale instead of relying on your own critical thinking? The only babble I listen to is the babble coming forth from my own conscience.
27 October 2006, on 6:34 pm
I think this is getting better. Yeah I made some stupid typing errors. It happens. Thanks for pointing them out, I screw up accept and except more than I would like to admit.
As far as the goal of Christianity.
There are many who believe it is to convert everyone to their beliefs. I think that anyone who really believes in it all would have to have that be part of the deal. For me to honestly say I believe in heaven and hell and not care at all about where other people end up would be kinda ludacris. That is a goal of mine, I suppose, but this isn’t the time or the place for that. I purposed not to witness because I gave you my word that I wouldn’t.
Personally I think the goal of Christianity is to be like Christ. Whether you believe in his diety or not, the stories of him are those of someone wanting to make the world a better place. Personally, and I don’t speak for all christians, but personally I think the end goal is making the world a better place to be.
I also am not big into “street witnessing” or I guess “blog witnessing” would be a more appropriate term here. I don’t think witnessing to a bunch of people who have no idea how I live or who I am is a very productive idea.
I really just try to enjoy life and make it better for people around me.
It’s my birthday and I am gonna go have some fun. I will prolly check out this thread tomorrow. Hope you all enjoy your weekend.
- Spence
27 October 2006, on 6:52 pm
How do you find meaning in life?
I take a sharp left at politics and go straight down the road of atheism, ignoring religion. X marks the spot.
As others have said, the meaning of life is what you make of it. There is only one and we don’t know when it will end, so live, love, enjoy, notice. I faced mortality at a very early age. Death is not frightening. Living eternally would be.
Have you developed a belief system?
Yes. I believe if I cut myself, I will bleed; if I bleed long enough, I will die. When I die, I will be just plain dead.
I believe in treating others as I want to be treated.
I believe in me; that I am an animal, a thinking animal, but an animal just the same.
I believe i would like to ditto what Raindogzilla said cos it is just so damn perfect.
27 October 2006, on 6:58 pm
Spence: Should God and Christ be disproved or their possiblities forsaken merely on account of people who claim to act in their names?
Again: extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. We don’t “disprove” or “forsake the possibilities” of god and christ at all; we simply require that those claiming they actually exist provide us with incontrovertible, irrefutable, hard scientific evidence that they do. Without this proof, we see no reason to believe in them.
On the other hand, we can judge religion on account of the people who follow it because by and large, they are the determining factor of its value. The actions of the people belonging to it are what help any given society decide whether that religion is more of a detriment or benefit to that society. Granted, this is most obvious in cults, since they tend to be much smaller and more extreme in their beliefs and practices than established organized religions - but not always.
27 October 2006, on 7:36 pm
Spence and the DCC brethren,
Been gone all day and thought I’d jump back into this.
I don’t for one minute that Jesus Christ was the son of god- that’d be kind of hard to justify as an atheist. I don’t even think the evidence is really there for him existing at all- two cites by Roman historians, one of which scientists are certain is a forgery(Josephus) do not convince me. That being said, I find a lot of good in the words and lessons attributed to Jesus. To be frank, if today’s self-proclaimed Christians actually lived by those red- inked words where he speaks in the King James bible- or, more simply, by Thomas Jefferson’s “The Life and Morals of Jesus Christ”(the founding father’s edit of the gospels), I certainly wouldn’t have as much of a problem with them.
Several weeks back, I watched the Amish deal with the tragedy of the Pennsylvania school shooting with as much grace and dignity as I’ve ever seen displayed. They invited the killer’s wife to the funerals, they told her they’d forgiven and prayed for him, they insisted that donations sent to them from around the country also go to the wife who’d lost her husband as well. They were just pretty damned Christlike.
Now, I’m not suggesting that all christians should renounce the modern world and go Amish or Mennonite- nor am I saying that I ultimately agree with the farmer’s supernatural beliefs, but they do set a good example. Someone above mentioned the scripture in which Jesus tells his followers not to haul their faith out and flaunt it in public, implying to me that he meant for worship to be a personal, individual relationship, one man or woman with his deity.
I don’t like that the reformed zealot, Paul, contradicted Jesus and the way the disciples actually lived in his attitude towards women. We all know that, in a reading of all the gospels- including the ones that were a touch too gnostic for those mortals that assembled the new testament(Thomas, Philip, Mary Magdalene), that Jesus treated women as equals, that the Magdalene may have in fact been the most favored of the bunch(and certainly, the whore label placed on her by the church was complete BS), and that she carried his message right alongside him.
The proselytizing, militant religion that christianity became, was far more Paul’s creation than Jesus’. Add to that the facts that Paul wasn’t there, didn’t know Jesus at all, and is rumored to have actually participated in the stoning of Steven before his elaborate Damascene course correction.
And, no, we have no unifying code beyond disbelief, Spence. To us, or to me anyway, morality is entirely up to the individual- though the basics may actually be genetic. Society is what places limits on those who can not or will not hold themselves to mutually agreed upon perameters of behavior, by way of the Law.
27 October 2006, on 7:55 pm
Dr. Timothy Larsen, professor of theology at Wheaton College in Illinois, says any growth in interest in atheism is a reflection of the strength of religion — the former being a parasite that feeds off the latter.
No sense here at all. The host to a parasite must have some substance to it, or the parasite will neither grow, nor stay with the host.
27 October 2006, on 9:36 pm
“By belief system we are asking what is your organized set of ideas/ideals that cause you to think and act in the way that you do and what is the origin of those beliefs. Once again thank you and we appreciate all feedback that we have received and will receive.”
Hey, I’m an athiest and I wonder about this sometimes, too. I think it’s a great question and I am glad you asked because I look forward to seeing everyone else’s answers. I know I’ve got morals. I know I’ve had them since I was a child. I know I rejected immoral messages fed to me by my father as a matter of course. I am still not clear on where my morals and ideals came from although I have some ideas. It is something I am only beginning to think about seriously.
What I do know is that somehow everyone comes to their religious writings with morals already formed. Most of us reject the idea that we should kill amalekite babies, for example. If our morals and values came from the Bible, we would have to say, “hell yeah, let’s kill us some babies!” but I would guess that most of us would think that there is no time in human history where it would have been appropriate to kill an entire race, including the babies.
27 October 2006, on 9:44 pm
Okay, I haven’t read through every single comment..but I have to agree that you witnessed, Spence.
It’s a real insult to our intelligence to tell us that the actions of people don’t necessarily point to the goodness or the truth of what they believe. We know that. Unfortunately for Christians who would believe otherwise, the Bible itself gives plenty of justification for treating certain groups of people poorly and is, in places, horribly violent. We don’t need Christians acting like assholes to reject any religion based on such an awful book as immoral.
27 October 2006, on 9:46 pm
Correction of typo: Unfortunately for Christians who would have *us* believe otherwise..
27 October 2006, on 9:49 pm
Oh Raindogzilla, you must write a post about that stuff! Unless you already have, in which case you must direct me to it!
27 October 2006, on 11:02 pm
OT: Who’s the head honcho now? I’ve got a story you guys won’t believe, if you want to post it. My wife got some counseling recently because of her mom dying. Both the doctor and the psychologist started up with the “just pray” thing. I could NOT believe a professional would act in such a manner.
27 October 2006, on 11:07 pm
I should say, if someone wants to email me, if you’re interested. My wife’s comeback was priceless. martian DOT anthropologist AT gmail DOT com
27 October 2006, on 11:18 pm
Martian - I don’t know who would be the head honcho around here…we have been sort of working as a team right now. I just sent an email off to you with my email address and the site’s email address for Marcus/King Retard and whoever else is doing the mail and you can choose where you want to send it. Now you have my curiousity aroused as to what your wife had to say!
27 October 2006, on 11:31 pm
I wish someone…Ron?…would please fix the site, so copy/paste could be used! There are times when I’ve posted by directly typing, and been ‘rushed’ by the comment gadget; making me feel like I’m under a clock watch!
I tried adding a comment 5 times in the last few days…nothing went through. [I'm using the latest Firefox browser.]
Stardust, can you help?
27 October 2006, on 11:34 pm
OK…
Spence said:
“Personally I think the goal of Christianity is to be like Christ. Whether you believe in his diety or not, the stories of him are those of someone wanting to make the world a better place.”
You’re a student, right?…PLEASE learn to spell words like Deity, Theism, atheism, atheist…NOT with an ‘ie’ version…and if you’re truly an AWARE Christian, you would capitalize the personal pronoun related to your Deity…or, i.e…His Deity referring to Christ; and of Him.
In other words, learn some standard spelling…and English usage; if for no other reason than to show respect for your OWN views…and those whom you encounter on ANY blog.
HOWEVER…!!!
Spence [and cohorts?]…if you read ANY amount of posts and comments here; you would discover that an overwhelming amount of us atheists were ‘brought up’ [indocrinated?] with various versions of Christianity. Many of us have college degrees, etc.
We ALL know, very well, the ‘Stories’ contained in the Old and New Testacles…er…Testaments [People [men] used to swear on their testacles…thus…Testament(s). [A tid-bit]
I suggest that, if nothing else; and if you truly ARE a student…you might learn a lot…as suggested previously by Stardust…by taking some time to read our ARCHIVES.
BOTTOM-LINE…you’re wasting time here trying to sneak in your extremely well known, albeit mythological, doctrines!
27 October 2006, on 11:37 pm
…indoctrinated…Damn!
[I guess mispelling the word shows my distain?]
27 October 2006, on 11:56 pm
misspelling…Now that’s a good one to remember…
I think, maybe, I need a good spanking for my own lack of careful proofreading…?
As in:
“Oh, Miss Spelling!…could you please take a moment, to come over here…
and spank me?…
Not TOO hard, though!
Hmmm…Hard?…as in…
Hard work?]
28 October 2006, on 12:17 am
I wish someone…Ron?…would please fix the site, so copy/paste could be used! There are times when I’ve posted by directly typing, and been ‘rushed’ by the comment gadget; making me feel like I’m under a clock watch!
I tried adding a comment 5 times in the last few days…nothing went through. [I’m using the latest Firefox browser.]
Stardust, can you help?
There have been a few people having this problem lately…
Gawd[Ron]…can you help us?
28 October 2006, on 1:55 am
I just wanted to say, “Wow.” Let it be known that I’m really proud to be allowed to comment alongside the likes of you guys. Everyone here is a great credit to mankind, evolution, and atheism. (My answers below really surprised me. I can see the changes that Sean’s influence wrought on me, such a difference between today and my first posts here.)
“I admit that there are situations and areas where people have hurt civilization “in the name Christ,” and apologize the best I can for that.”
Unfortunately, Spence, you cannot make up for the damage xianity and all religions have done to civilization. However, it does show that your heart and mind are, at least, in the right place. You are in the minority, at least in my personal experience.
“There are many churches that are the most helpful organizations for feeding the poor in their area…at the forefront of peace keeping and protecting rights in countries where people are oppressed.”
But why do they have to do it with food in one hand and false hope in the other? Instead of preaching about their religion, they could be teaching the people to read and write. Those with the power to sway the stomach have the power to sway the mind. If the Catholic church would condone the use of condoms and other birth control (common sense!), it’s quite possible that the population (esp. the AIDS/HIV infected population) of central Africa would be lower and closer to it’s environmental carrying capacity. Any good done by religious organizations could be accomplished without the religious part.
“Should God and Christ be disproved or their possiblities forsaken merely on account of people who claim to act in their names?”
To apply this to atheists, you would reword this to read “Should all gods/goddesses/deities of any kind be discounted on account of zealots who act in their names?” Because they aren’t CLAIMING to do it in their chosen deity’s name, they ARE doing it. Regardless, it is the idea of a deity at all that is to be forsaken. Some atheists (like myself) are particularly annoyed by xianity; but, I think this has to with
- the unique quality of xians to believe in door-to-door sales techniques,
- the fact that most of the theists we come in contact with in the USA are some form of xian, and
- many (but NOT all) atheists in the United States are former xians who know the whole dog-and-pony show by heart.
I am particularly fond of Buddhists, who seem to leave others to their own devices. For the record, George W. Bush and his atheist-hating father aren’t really helping the cause of xianity, though. It’s not really your god we are against, but all gods.
As far as “witnessing”, I can tell that you are trying very hard not to turn into fundie scum on us, and that is very much appreciated. However, I can also smell an air of contempt in some of your questions. I hope that is just some of the misconceptions you bring to this conversation, and hopefully they are vaporizing as you read. Good luck. Sincere questioning, even if it starts out as an assignment, can only lead to growth.
28 October 2006, on 2:29 am
As for the ORIGINAL post made here:
I read the article in which Timothy Larsen refers to us as a parasite on religion….What gets me is that religious people seem to think we are just jaded, have lost our faith, and only need to be gently ushered back into the herd. The problem is that we took the red pill, we stepped out of the dark, we saw the other side and there is no going back. He talks about atheism as “a disappointment with God and with the church.” Why are xians so typically self-centered? Why does it have to do with their god or their church? Atheism, for me, was a realization that I was miserable, only addicted to the friendliness of the religious atmosphere, and desperately working to conceal reality from my own mind. I was depressed and lonely, until I realized I’d always been an atheist. I was born an atheist, as all human beings are.
Larsen states: “It’s very important for people of faith to realize how unsettling and threatening their posture and rhetoric and practice can feel to others.” I’m bothered by this statement. he is making light of the threat, making it seem as though we are seeing a threat where there isn’t any. The threat is real, and apparent through statements including the one above referring to us as parasites (and that was the underlying meaning). He belittles us in one sentence, then makes it look like he’s asking us to join him in the next.
28 October 2006, on 3:19 am
This is quite enlightening– with all due respect to Stardust, I think we may have found ourselves a handful more Christians who aren’t here to proselytize. However, I skipped something like the last 30 posts, so some things may have changed.
Just to eliminate any possible conclusion– Spence and I are different people. Spence seems to have a habit of tacking on “from DCC” to his name. Plus, he goes by “Spence”, not “Spencer”.
…actually, I’m sure you all knew that. Duh. Nevermind.
Spence, and his group: I’d answer your questions now, but at the moment, I’m tired and can’t think entirely straight for at least a couple of reasons.
Cheers, all.
28 October 2006, on 4:43 am
Here are the questions:
1) How do you find meaning in life?
and
2) Have you developed a belief system?
I don’t ‘find’ meaning in life, life just is.
The only ‘meaning’ in life is what the individual believes it to be, but as Gautama Buddha said some 2,600 years ago, the concept of ‘meaning’ only exists if we have a concept of ‘non-meaning’ and both states are part of the false, illusory and discriminatory world.
I have not developed a ‘belief system’ as I have no need for such intellectually immature and irrational pursuits, being neither a delusional psychopath nor a manipulative sociopath.
Incidentally, and for the avoidance of doubt, it is possible to believe in no-thing, though it is doing a violence to the language to claim that is a ‘belief system’.
PS: As a special aside to the students at DCC who are undertaking the ‘Introduction to Philosophy’ course, read Nagarjuna, Chuang-Tzu, Hume, Kant, Russell, Blackburn et al, together with any books on the forensic psychology of delusional psychosis, and then think for yourself, critically and honestly, even if that means dismissing your heretofore cherished opinions!
28 October 2006, on 5:24 am
Opinions were meant to be challenged and changed. And brains were meant for thinking.
28 October 2006, on 9:45 am
Thinking of xians that came to visit awhile who seemed honest, friendly and who we could talk to, whatever happened to kidkawartha? He was pretty cool.
28 October 2006, on 10:13 am
Star, last I heard, kidkawartha had exited the blogosphere, his personal blog seems to have been taken down- as he, himself, had said he was going to do- and replaced with some bizarre, self-help spam wanting your email address. I like to think he’s still lurking out there.
ChuckA, may I call you Chukka, which is like some furry, knee-high boot, I think? Are you using IE as a browser, because others seem to be having trouble with that? And there’s the extent of my technical wizardry. O, Sean, why d’ya