Is Europe’s traditionally secular liberalism threatened?
29 October 2006 by StardustOk, I am going to probably stir up trouble again but this is something that I have been thinking about, and maybe many of you have been, too.
While many of us here in the U.S.A. are struggling against the Xian right on issues concerning separation of church and state, Intelligent Design being taught in public school science classes, women’s right to choose, etc., we may be overlooking the growth of another rapidly growing religious group whose numbers are becoming significant enough to sway the outcomes of the above-mentioned issues. Some might call me an “alarmist”, but I see that our challenges as atheists are only going to get larger, and maybe sooner than we think.
This may not be of immediate concern for Americans, but it is for the atheists and mainstream religious in Europe. Statistics show that birthrates among Europeans are in decline (along with meager economic growth) while there has been a steady flow of Muslim immigrants who settle in countries all over Europe, produce large numbers of children (who are then natural born Europeans), and are being raised to perpetuate the Muslim faith AND whose votes have a strong influence in the outcome of elections.
Omer Taspinar of Global Politics writes in his essay Europe’s Muslim Street: “Islam may still be a faraway religion for millions of Americans. But for Europeans it is local politics. The 15 million Muslims of the European Union (EU)—up to three times as many as live in the United States—are becoming a more powerful political force than the fabled Arab street. Europe’s Muslims hail from different countries and display diverse religious tendencies, but the common denominator that links them to the Muslim world is their sympathy for Palestine and Palestinians. And unlike most of their Arab brethren, growing numbers of Europe’s Muslims can vote in elections that count.”
From BBC News:Islam is widely considered Europe’s fastest growing religion, with immigration and above average birth rates leading to a rapid increase in the Muslim population.
The exact number of Muslims is difficult to establish however, as census figures are often questioned and many countries choose not to compile such information anyway.
Quote from: HARUN YAHYA : The Most Rapidly Expanding
Religion in Europe
When all the facts are brought together, they reveal that there is a strong movement toward Islam in many countries, and that Islam is increasingly becoming the most important topic of world interest. These developments indicate that the world is moving toward a totally new era, one in which, God willing, Islam will gain in importance and the Qur’an’s moral teachings will spread like a rising tide. It is important to realize that this highly significant development was announced in the Qur’an 14 centuries ago:
They desire to extinguish God’s Light with their mouths. But God refuses to do other than perfect His Light, even though the unbelievers detest it. It is He Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the True Religion to exalt it over every other religion, even though the idolaters detest it. (Qur’an, 9:32-33)
Should American Atheists and Secularists be concerned?
LINK: U.S. Muslims moving into prime-time politics
29 October 2006, on 6:00 pm
Maybe. Although, being immigrants, the muslims in my country (Sweden) have a hard time adapting to our society (or vice versa), and are thus left in the fringe. Segregation is also common - there is a suburb to Stockholm called Rinkeby which is inhabited by probably 90% muslims.
I do not think (and hope) that their voices are being heard that much. I also think that everything going on in the real muslim word (the Arabian countries) is stagnating the infestation of Islam in other countries.
29 October 2006, on 6:36 pm
In answer to your last question, “Fuck yes!”
The alarm’s been sounding for a while, though on sites that would probably be labelled “wingnut” by many here.
On the list of Muslim hatred-targets, Jews top the list, followed by…aw, who’m I kidding, there’s no way to rank it.
Supposedly, Xians and Jews, as “people of the book”, get a chance to live (as second-class citizens), but atheists and polytheists (read: Hindus, Buddhists, etc.) are targets, and cannot change this status (except by converting).
Xianity and Islam are both a problem. To mark them equivalant is an error. One has death squads and the other doesn’t. Fairly simple.
Since you included a koran verse, here’s a few more (http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html)
29 October 2006, on 6:38 pm
BTW, Stardust, congratulate your fellow bloggers on maintaining things with Seans death. You’re doing a bangup job.
29 October 2006, on 6:41 pm
I’m glad to hear what the sweede said, I don’t think countries should be so damn leient on letting people in. In the modern world, immigration has to be limited. These fuckin nuts from the third world are just pissing out babies and the rest of the world has to deal with them.
29 October 2006, on 6:55 pm
BTW, Stardust, congratulate your fellow bloggers on maintaining things with Seans death. You’re doing a bangup job.
Thanks MegaTroopX - We have a really great team here, and that includes all of our loyal readers and commenters!
29 October 2006, on 7:17 pm
Xianity and Islam are both a problem. To mark them equivalant is an error. One has death squads and the other doesn’t.
While not all muslims are wanting to kill people, not all xian radicals would refrain from forming death squads if our law enforcement wasn’t so good at keeping the loonies at bay. The question is, can our law enforcement and legal system withstand the strain as the battle between secularism and religion builds?
Moderate muslims often side with xians in their stance on abortion, prayer in public places, creationism, etc and they wish for “tolerance” to be granted to them by forcing governments to cater to their religious beliefs.
Heated disputes are arising across parts of Europe as Muslims demand “tolerance”. If it racial discrimination that is being protested, one can understand the violence…but is it more than we realize way over here in America? In Denmark,for example, one of the most secular countries now requires reading of the Qur’an in high schools, while the bible is not required reading.
29 October 2006, on 7:43 pm
Ah not a day goes by without headlines about some outraged Muslim doing something here (taking a primary school to court for not letting her wear a full face veil in class, for example), or some Muslim youths doing something there (vandalising soldiers’ homes and painting obscenities on the driveway) etc…
We have a big clash of cultures in Britain (and there have been riots). The problem is, the EU’s rules render our government powerless. Not too long ago a bunch of Muslims hijacked a plane, flew it to Britain and were allowed to remain. They all claim welfare and now live happily here, not working, just having a ball. Madness.
Now we are getting Muslim faith schools cropping up and again, the government is refusing to do anything (mainly because half of them are rabid Christians - Tony Blair is, and the “Minister for Equality” is a member of Opus Dei - and they don’t want the faith schools they’re building threatened by any sweeping regulations. Tony Blair is allowed freaking creationism to be taught in some!).
So you’re right, the culture-clash problem is far more on our doorstep than it is yours. Possibly because Americans patronate and ensure people swear allegience to the country, whereas we just let any old body waltz in, join a ghetto and start taking us to court for having freedom of speech or for objecting to what we consider unacceptable. And EU laws ensure that, even if our courts throw it out, they can just go to the EU and they overrule our laws anyway *sigh*.
Sorry… am I ranting? Apologies!
29 October 2006, on 8:30 pm
Stardust has a similar article about this, so I will post what I posted there.
The islamic religion is politically incompatible with a modern secular state.
Some fundamentalist christian religions are also incompatible with a modern secular state.
Those who consider their religion to be their government and their government to be their religion, will always hold a “government of men” in contempt.
And will attempt by sheer weight of numbers and the voting process to be the dominant worldview in whatever society they live.
Dominionism is the new game in town. It is the same as the old game played in the crusades, but this one will primarily use the voting processes of democratic societies.
The economic model of more production at cheaper prices has led in part to this problem. A free market economy requires cheap labor in order to be competitive.
The US sources its cheap labor predominately from South America. The people are predominately christian (catholic). Europe and the UK sources its cheap labour predominately from islamic countries who are, obviously muslim.
It stands to reason that the effects of these economic politices will be noticed firstly in Europe and the UK, which is exactly what is happening.
29 October 2006, on 8:32 pm
Given the prevailing cultural climate here- the racist, xenophobic, 9/11-exacerbated attitude of Americans towards Muslims of any stripe, I don’t think it’ll be a problem for us in the near future. We do have a similar “problem” in regards to being outbred but that only really matters to those who view the dominace of a white majority as the way thingsought to be- you know, those who project their own racist views on the objects of that bias, the very objects that may one day be in the position to enforce those ugly views on them.
As for Europe, the statistics don’t lie in terms of the growth of Islam in that Union. However, interpreting that data to predict the future is guesswork at best.
On one side of the spectrum, the argument is for eliminating the flow of that sort of immigrant into the European nations altogether and the implementation of draconian laws meant to force assimilation on those already there. On the other, a case can be made for actively welcoming the new arrivals enthusiastically and striving to avoid quarantining a possibly volatile population in squalor- in the hopes that, by example, the desire for freedom will take root.
We’ve seen, in Iraq, that democracy cannot be installed at gunpoint and, in Palestine, that even free elections don’t always guarantee democracy-minded winners.
For myself, I tend to trust the appeal of freedom, at least in cases of already established free societies. Not that it’s not worrisome. I know it’s anecdotal but I used to get my weed from a Palestinian, kind of a real-life Ali G., wannabe gangsta, and I not only spent a lot of time at the home of his extended family but even, ahem, dated his sister. While the grandparents were extremely conservative, the parents were still religious but fairly openminded. And the kids were full bore Americans.
29 October 2006, on 9:09 pm
While not all muslims are wanting to kill people, not all xian radicals would refrain from forming death squads if our law enforcement wasn’t so good at keeping the loonies at bay.
Actually, that kinda makes my point. In one case the nutcases are restrained by the cops. In the other case the cops either do nothing about the nutcases or are the nutcases themselves.
If our cops start chasing girls back into burning buildings because of “immodest” dress (aka, being “uncovered meat”), then we have a problem.
29 October 2006, on 9:11 pm
in regards to being outbred but that only really matters to those who view the dominace of a white majority as the way thingsought to be- you know, those who project their own racist views on the objects of that bias, the very objects that may one day be in the position to enforce those ugly views on them.
RDZ - I am looking at how muslims’ religious beliefs might affect the outcome at the voting booths on issues such as creationism in schools, abortion and women’s right to choose, prayer in schools, etc. In our area, the issue of banning men and boys from girl’s public school basketball and other girl’s sports, which is not going over very well with non-muslim families. So, muslims have already started trying to interject their beliefs into the public schools right along with the xians — so we have twice the battle. I can imagine in the future where to get away from religion, secular schools will become the private schools and things will reverse.
29 October 2006, on 9:57 pm
Here is an excerpt from an article I read in Time Magazine about some of what is taught to children at the Universal muslim school in a Chicago suburb.
“Principal Siddiqui, 35, a mother of three whose parents came from India, contends that the strain of Islam taught at Universal is one that is free of provincial baggage. Certain features of regional Islam — arranged marriages, a ban on women driving — are not part of the program here. “It’s a constant battle, separating cultural issues from religious values,” says Siddiqui. The school does teach how to avoid being seduced by those parts of American culture many parents consider un-Islamic. “What we’re up against in movies, television and music,” she says, “is profanity, sex and violence. The whole teenage phenomenon in the U.S. is one of personal power — claiming their own voice, their own soul, their own spirit. We don’t want to crush that. We want to guide it.“
“guide”? Hopefully the following will not stick to most muslim kids and roll off like it does with most catholic school kids.
The first order of business is removing temptation. The codes of dress and behavior are strict. Students must have regular haircuts (”no bleaching or ‘off’ colors are allowed”). Students must wear socks and closed-toe shoes. Boys cannot wear earrings or have any body piercing. Students may not wear makeup during school. Through Grade 5, the girls wear plaid jumpers and leggings, but the head scarf called a hijab is optional; the boys wear navy dress pants and light blue shirts. Older girls must wear the hijab (light blue for middle schoolers, gray or white for high schoolers) and a calf-length navy top that resembles a raincoat. Wearing the hijab full-time is a big commitment, so some girls take it off as soon as they leave the building. Freshman Sarah Martini says, “I’m not ready to wear it yet. It has to come from the heart.” Girls are separated from boys from sixth grade through tenth grade. As juniors and seniors, they mix again, although the sexes sit separately in the classroom. Casual conversation between girls and boys is discouraged at all times. Cell phones and iPods are banned, but the principal is realistic about it. “If I did a locker check,” says Siddiqui, “I know what I’d find. So I don’t. Better cell phones than drugs.”
The second order of business is creating what Universal calls an “Islamic environment.” The Koran and the sayings of Muhammad are taught two days a week, Arabic three days a week. Grades 2 to 12 break for prayer once a day. Beyond Scripture, a Muslim approach influences the traditional curriculum as well. When teacher Fuzia Jarad’s English class read Romeo and Juliet, the girls wanted to know, “Is it love at first sight?” “Yes,” the teacher answered. “As Muslims, we don’t do that. The difference is lust versus love; appearance versus knowing. Islam protects you from mistakes.” For assistant principal Abdallah, who is in charge of discipline, love is a big issue. “I’ve had students come to me and say, �So and so are in love. Everyone is gossiping about the girl. Her reputation is ruined.’I tell them, �If you care, show respect and stop the discussions.’ Sometimes a girl or boy will tell me about a love letter they’ve received. It’s always a letter. They can’t socialize. They don’t want the letter. They don’t want to get in trouble. The feelings for each other are natural. Islam gives us a way to approach those feelings. Choose your spouse, but don’t give your body or soul to someone until you’re married.”
The students seem to make an effort, but cultural isolation is impossible. “My dad will hear the word love when I play my music, and he’ll say that’s against our religion,” says freshman Ryan Ahmad. “So I’ll stop for a week. But then one of my friends will start singing some lyric, and I start up again.” When freshman Gulrana Syed watches TV, she tries to stick with family shows but gives in to the temptation to watch Fear Factor. “If swearing starts,” she says, “I turn it off and hope God forgives me.”
Though the school and the parents want their kids to be successful in America, the ambivalence of many Islamic parents sends mixed signals. The pull of their home country is a constant distraction from fitting into this one.
Seems that muslims, like xians are trying to raise a bunch of guilt-ridden offspring who will hopefully not turn out as religious as their parents and maybe even shake off the superstitions altogether before they reach voting age.
2 November 2006, on 12:36 am
Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, etc… the problems is not what they believe or don’t, the problem i s not their values, the problem is what they’re prepared to do to have other peoples be like them or at least don’t do anything offensive to them. I’m an atheist, I’m as frequently offended by other atheists as by agnostics, or by Christians, Muslims or Buddhists. The problem come from some of the fundies and no religions (or un-religions) has a monopoly on them.
2 November 2006, on 1:02 am
OK I remember what was so important before we were so rudely interrupted. I am paranoid about this kind of thing. I have so little recognition of good coming from the fundies that I can’t give in to any of their demands. BUT I was watching the food channel while surfing the tube the other day and it occurred to me that we are not as fucked as I perceive.
Rachel Ray and Emeril dressed as archaeologists, Pith helmets and khakis if you catch my drift. This was their halloween show. So Rachel was giving Emeril lessons (yeah right) on how to make some scrumptious treat that you wrapped in filo dough strips and make it look like a mummy. It was then that I realized that maybe just maybe we are going to be alright. Where else but in the U.S.
They should come for the freedom but stay for the pastries. Hang up the Hajib and burkas and fit in or go back to the culture that taught them to dress like that but chewed them up and spit them out.
2 November 2006, on 2:32 am
guesswork at best???? I’m still hoping they ban religion worldwide
2 November 2006, on 8:00 am
I’m still hoping they ban religion worldwide
I am waiting for them to reclassify religion as mythology, as it should be.
2 November 2006, on 10:18 am
Wouldn’t that be an irony of ironies? Secularization, progressivism and liberalism provide the very freedom and tolerance that configures the globe for a new era of holy wars and dark years.
2 November 2006, on 10:39 am
Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, etc… the problems is not what they believe or don’t, the problem i s not their values, the problem is what they’re prepared to do to have other peoples be like them or at least don’t do anything offensive to them. I’m an atheist, I’m as frequently offended by other atheists as by agnostics, or by Christians, Muslims or Buddhists.
False certainty … Unfounded confidence … or immodest Truth … tends to lead to aggressiveness, intolerance, rudeness, evangelicalism, proselytizing, in-your-face, etc … no matter what that “Truth” is.
Spreading humility in light of our relative ignorance and insignificance … as well as an appreciation that we are all in the same boat … would go a long way towards keeping people from being arrogant, hating, prejudiced, intolerant and warmongering.
2 November 2006, on 11:16 am
Intelligence leads to atheism, hopelessness and a lack of desire to reproduce.
The world will be inherited by the less intelligent and faster spreading muslims, rats, bacteria…
2 November 2006, on 12:37 pm
Abooga wrote
Hoplessness and a lack of desire to reproduce?? Hardly!!
2 November 2006, on 1:05 pm
Posts such as these make me very, very uncomfortable, as they skirt the edge of racism, in this case Islamophobia, or Arab bashing, as some call it. (Except the latter isn’t really accurate, as many Muslims are not Arab, i.e. Iranians.)
Anyway, I read the article and all it says is that Europeans are not reproducing as previously; it says nothing about which kinds of Europeans, and Muslims who immigrate to Europe are considered Europeans, no?
And Megatroop X, when you say Muslims have death squads and Christians don’t, is that supposed to be a joke? Do you know anything about the past half-century of history in Latin American, during which death squads, supported by the Catholic Church (not the liberation church, the formal churhc) and the Christian U.S. government, decimated the populations of El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, etc? And death squads are part of any military action, for example in Vietnam, and Iraq, and the Phillippines, etc.
Also, when you have a national military as large as the U.S. and Israel, you really don’t need death squads (I’m assuming you also mean suicide bombers), since you can bomb from five miles up and never have to risk or take your own life.
Please people, realize that the major religious problems today have been a long time in the making and consist mainly of Christian and Jewish fundamentalism. Muslim fundamentalism is just in its infancy. And yes, it is becoming a problem, but it ill serves us to focus on problems other than our own. (Meaning that most of us are members of the U.S. Judeo-Christian community, whether we’re belivers any longer or not. We vote largely for Christians and Jews, we work largely for Christians and Jews, we participate in a culture created largely by Christians and Jews.)
2 November 2006, on 2:34 pm
RDZ said: On one side of the spectrum, the argument is for eliminating the flow of that sort of immigrant into the European nations altogether and the implementation of draconian laws meant to force assimilation on those already there. On the other, a case can be made for actively welcoming the new arrivals enthusiastically and striving to avoid quarantining a possibly volatile population in squalor- in the hopes that, by example, the desire for freedom will take root.
We’ve seen, in Iraq, that democracy cannot be installed at gunpoint and, in Palestine, that even free elections don’t always guarantee democracy-minded winners.
I think this is the key. The more a new population is made to feel welcome and included, it seems to reason, the more likely they will be to begin to view themselves as citizens of wherever they have immigrated to. Will this always be the case? No, but as RDZ illustrates, within a generation or two, people begin to feel invested in their native country, i.e. the place where they were born. It is when they are perpetually treated as outsiders that they will retain closer and more nationalistic ties to the countries of their parents or grandparents.
I also agree with Catherine in her assessment that this is walking a razor’s edge. We’ve discussed this before, and will probably continue to disagree on this one Stardust, but it still feels like more of a “there goes the neighborhood” argument. That said, I do agree there is plenty of potential for damage to be done in terms of shifting towards fundamentalism, but the way people are initially welcomed can have some effect on that. Like RDZ said, freedom can be contagious.
2 November 2006, on 3:12 pm
Let’s see if I can get this comment to post. Perhaps the copy and paste procedure doesn’t work anymore? I’ll avoid it this time. Darn! Have to compose instead.
Stardust asks whether American Atheists and Secularists need to be concerned given the increase in Islamic populations in Europe.
Not only should we be concerned, but we should be actively seeking ways to protect the liberties we cherish.
A BBC News item from Wednesday, November 1 tells of an archaeologist in Turkey being taken to court for presenting evidence in a book that offended Islamic sensibilities. This is not the first time that scientists have been targeted in recent years for having the audacity to report their findings regardless of its impact on cherished religious beliefs.
Our world can ill afford to have religious factions telling scientists what information is permitted for public consumption. The threat of court battles and other more brutal action may very well be enough to silence some scientists. I’m not just concerned about the impact of increased Mush-lim and Xian Fundie populations, I am really ticked off.
2 November 2006, on 3:21 pm
“we should be actively seeking ways to protect the liberties we cherish.”
Lynda, the liberties we cherish have been disappeared (some) and under attack (others) by a Government that is run by Christians and Jews. Muslims have nothing to do with the slow death of the Constitution.
2 November 2006, on 3:42 pm
Wow, great post and discussion, Star; good points all.
I know we’ll invariably have to agree to disagree on some points, but I do think it’s important to keep this conversation going, and include muslims, at least the moderates, in it as much as possible.
2 November 2006, on 4:53 pm
Catherine,
Terrorist attacks carried out by Muslims are just as destructive to the US Constitution as anything Xians and Jews have done. My dislike for the Mush-lim religion is not at all more exaggerated over my dislike for the other hundreds of religions inflicted upon human-kind. Where there is faith there is ignorance. Where there is religion there is oppression. Where there is belief in gawd there is stupidity.
2 November 2006, on 5:05 pm
King Retard states: The more a new population is made to feel welcome and included, it seems to reason, the more likely they will be to begin to view themselves as citizens of wherever they have immigrated to.
This may be true when religion is not a factor. However, religion creates barriers between people that no welcoming committee can knock down. The mindset of those who see themselves as “god’s chosen” or “god’s nation” or possessing the “only truth” cannot view themselves as “at home” anywhere on earth. They don’t consider Earth their home. They have eyes set on a paradise outside our physical reality and they are willing to surrender others’ freedoms to secure it.
2 November 2006, on 5:15 pm
LesserFool wrote:
If that happens we can only hope that the second Dark Ages will be followed by be another Enlightenment; that rationalism will continue to thrive underground, then resurface again, this time to put a permanent end to irrational beliefs.
2 November 2006, on 5:45 pm
Terrorist attacks carried out by Muslims are just as destructive to the US Constitution as anything Xians and Jews have done.”
Lynda, how, exactly? Which Muslims have made laws in the U.S. to circumvent the Constitution? What have I missed? Everything done to the Constitution has been done by the U.S. administration, Congress, with many courts backing them up, and I hate to acknowledge it, but also by us, for not standing up in outrage as it has happened.
2 November 2006, on 5:58 pm
Lynda wrote:
Well said! I couldn’t agree more. I’m sure Europeans are having more problems with Muslims than we in the US, but it’s probably just a matter of time.
2 November 2006, on 8:03 pm
Posts such as these make me very, very uncomfortable, as they skirt the edge of racism, in this case Islamophobia, or Arab bashing, as some call it.
Catherine and all, My intention was not to bash Arabs as people…but to bring up concerns about this growing religion. We atheists regularily make fun of xian fundies and their magical sky daddy…well, this is the muslim’s sky daddy, too. Also, we mock xians on a regular basis for being inbred, illiterate, their poor spelling and lack of reasoning skills…etc, etc. Those of the superstition of Islam are not deserving of the same fun-poking and criticism? Just look at watchnj who was trolling here for awhile. He was a real muslim pain in the ass!
The point I was trying to make is that the growing muslim religious population is adding to the number of gawd believers who will also have a growing voice in political issues and voting power which means our battle to maintain separation of church and state is going to become even more difficult.
My post wasn’t intended to be anti-Arab. It is a purely expressing a concern about another wackadoo religion that I have zero respect for. In the western world, people are free to believe what they want to believe, but that isn’t enough for the believers of the Abrahamic gawd. They are compelled to infiltrate our societies with their gawd beliefs and won’t stop until they make the world their own (or die trying).
Quoting LesserFool once more, “Wouldn’t that be an irony of ironies? Secularization, progressivism and liberalism provide the very freedom and tolerance that configures the globe for a new era of holy wars and dark years.”
Here are a bunch of middle eastern EX- Muslim atheists who state they must “Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. “
Apostates of Islam
2 November 2006, on 8:39 pm
Lynda said: This may be true when religion is not a factor. However, religion creates barriers between people that no welcoming committee can knock down. The mindset of those who see themselves as “god’s chosen” or “god’s nation” or possessing the “only truth” cannot view themselves as “at home” anywhere on earth. They don’t consider Earth their home. They have eyes set on a paradise outside our physical reality and they are willing to surrender others’ freedoms to secure it.
I agree with you but I also believe that a large part of religious extremism has to do with secular conditions. When people feel desperate or alienated, they will be more likely to cling to cultural aspects which identify themselves as different or which make them comfortable. Generally, those who are the most religious are religious are those who feel the least connection to life on this planet. Obviously, this is a generalization but when people have more opportunities open to them they may be more willing to reject more fundamentalist beliefs becuase they feel more freedom.
Will their be exceptions to this? Sure, more than I can count. That said, treating people as perpetual outsiders unless they immediately conform to a societies norms will increase fundamentalism and the concept of the resident alien identity.
2 November 2006, on 9:12 pm
Obviously, this is a generalization but when people have more opportunities open to them they may be more willing to reject more fundamentalist beliefs becuase they feel more freedom.
KR - I haven’t done much research about economic conditions of muslims in Europe, but in this country, I was reading that the median income for muslim families in the U.S.A is around $59,000 and the neighborhoods they live in in the Chicagoland suburban areas, for instance, are quite nice and comfortable. Much of their money goes to their beautiful mosques for the growth of their religious community. (Much like middle-class to well-off evangelicals do.)
treating people as perpetual outsiders unless they immediately conform to a societies norms will increase fundamentalism and the concept of the resident alien identity.
Yet most muslims isolate themselves and teach their children in their mosques to stay away from the evil American ways. Isn’t it possible that many are shunning Western society while denouncing our ways of life as evil? Isolating themselves?
I work in a very multi-cultural company with a diverse roster of 250 workers. I consider myself to be a very friendly person and people generally like me.
I have many friends, and I have more than 40 penfriends around the world in 27 different countries on all continents, from all walks of life and various faiths…or non beliefs.
At work, I have tried to talk to several of the muslim women to try to get to know them at least to say hello and have casual conversation. I know they can speak English because that is a requirement for the job (we score academic achievement exams…essay portions.) My intentions are genuine yet they avert their eyes at my attempts to say hello, and they do not socialize with any of us. These are not old women…they are young, maybe early 20s to 50s. We all feel quite shunned by these women who we would like to include in our lunchtime conversations and breaktime chit chat. We just smile, and we keep gently trying. If they could put that damned religion aside for a little while, they would really get to see that we sincerely wish to be friends.
3 November 2006, on 12:16 am
Stardust, your experience at work is not uncommon I’m sure. The cult mentality labels outsiders (and to Muslims we are the outsiders) as evil, or at best deceived by the devil. They want to avoid the contact for fear of being unwittingly seduced away from their faith.
My parents spent a great deal of money to send their daughters to a privately run Christian high school. They were attempting to make it less likely that we would marry outside our religion. We were discouraged from having friends outside this sect as well. The attempt to segregate us from the world was unsuccessful luckily. I’m sure my father still regrets the hours he spent working a second job to pay our tuitions.
We may want to include Muslims in our society, but unless we are willing to convert to their way of thinking and believing they will refuse our invitations. We must continue to facilitate their settlement within our communities, but at the same time it is imperative that we make it perfectly clear that we are equal citizens and are unwilling to adopt their religious beliefs and practices. Don’t be surprised if they snub you. They are thinking about eternal life and you pose a serious threat to their eternal welfare.
3 November 2006, on 12:26 am
Stardust, are any of you politically active? I mean you and your European-American friends and the Muslim women who work with you? I wonder if that’s the difference. All the Muslim women I know are politically active and quite open and assertive. That’s how I know them, as a member of the Greater Cleveland Immigrant Support Group, working to counter the Arab bashing that set in after 9/11. Perhaps they realize that this is the way to their own liberation and certainly the way Americans (who wish to) behave. Or perhaps they have a different view of Islam than the women in your workplace.
3 November 2006, on 12:31 am
KR,
I think freedom is attractive enough to persuade people to re-evaluate their religious leanings. One aspect of migrating Muslims is that the more separated they are from their roots the more likely they will be influenced to think critically about their religious ideas. It won’t happen overnight though and it may be the next generation, born in the new homeland, that makes the break with tradition.
3 November 2006, on 12:46 am
Catherine,
If the Muslim women you know are actively involved in a group “working to counter the Arab bashing that set in after 9/11″ it makes sense that they are open and assertive. Being open and assertive is not necessarily a good thing if it leads to Sharia law being accepted in legal cases in US Courts and the expectation that no one should “disrespect” Islamic beliefs. Perhaps your friends are more liberated Muslims, but their agenda may not be supportive of the types of freedoms US citizens value. (I have to wonder if they are liberated Muslims how long it will be before an Islamic Fatwa is declared against them.)
3 November 2006, on 12:57 am
“I’m still hoping they ban religion worldwide”
“I am waiting for them to reclassify religion as mythology, as it should be.”
Jimmy Dean and Stardust, I couldn’t have said it better myself. When will humanity evolve past the need for these silly myths? They make nice stories; I have always been particularly fond of the story of Persephone and Hades. But they’re just stories. Why are Greek myths any different from Abrahamic (?) myths?
As for Sylvain, are you saying we should just sit back and take it up the ass from these people? They aren’t sane! And they are teaching my children this crap in public school. Of course, she knows it is bullshit, luckily, but I’d like to know why that git (read:teacher) thinks it is their right to be allowed to indoctrinate my child with lies. Oh, she was the wife of a preacher man. I guess that makes it okay.
They are teaching our children not to think for themselves. Unfortunately, calling for the dissolution of all cults - er, faiths - would get us no where so we are left with using our right to free speech to make sure they know we don’t appreciate being coerced into submission. I don’t care what other people believe, I just want them to leave it in their own home. When they stop trying to shove it down our throats, we won’t have to talk about it anymore. I mean, jeez, their savior said to pray in private. Why can’t they follow simple directions? Oh, it comes back to that “thinking” thing…
I agree that any dramatic increases in the voting voice of the religious is a scary prospect. Regardless of WHAT religion, it is the fact that they are counting on leaving this planet behind at some point coupled with the fact that they are taking orders from an imaginary friend that scares me.
3 November 2006, on 1:02 am
Or perhaps they have a different view of Islam than the women in your workplace.
catherine, The women that I work with are obviously adhering strictly to their religion or something. Yes, there are muslim women in the Chicagoland area who are politically active and working for women’s rights and better understanding between muslims and non-muslims especially since 911, but there are also many more who are very religious and loyal to Islam. Chicagoland is home to some of the major mosques of the Muslims in the U.S. and the Muslim Mosque Foundation here has a huge membership. Maybe that is the reason for the difference in our impressions of the muslim faith?
I think the difference is that muslim women in this area, while more liberal than their middle eastern counterparts (they drive cars, and some have jobs to help out with family income), are very traditional when it comes to their faith and obeying their husbands and following the Quran. Across the street from my best friend are very nice apartment buildings. Most of the tentants are Palestinian Muslims. I have been witness to young boys ordering their mothers about like dogs. I also see the husbands shout orders to their wives and daughters. It’s pretty similar to subservient xians of the redneck fundamentalist variety. More than 28% of Chicago area muslims supported Bushie in the last election, which is really surprising to me that they would support him at all. But then again, they are pro life creationists just like the evangelical xians. That’s what I am getting at, not their culture, but their religion.
3 November 2006, on 1:09 am
My apologies for the screwed up grammar tonight. I’m a writer professionally and I’m just too tired to mind my p’s and q’s tonight.
What gets me is that it could be that this “Sylvain” is an atheist who has visited my MySpace and my YouTube pages. I suggested she come here, hoping she would see the light, so to speak. Just an annoying person, but still, well…
The following was posted on my blog at MySpace last week by someone calling herself “Sophie”: Seeing your blog and posts on YouTube, you seem to have a real hatred for your country and its citizens. I have never experienced backlash for my Atheism, and I live in the ‘Bible Belt’. Maybe it’s just YOUR attitude.
By “Bible Belt” she means Oklahoma City, if her profile is telling the truth. Honestly, I can’t imagine a big city like that being worse for an atheist than a semi-small town in Louisiana. Come on.
I admit, my blogs at MySpace are a bit angry. I use it to vent. They aren’t all religious. Some are about having a bad day. Some are quite happy.
Do you guys think I’m angry ALL of the time? Are you angry all of the time? I think I’m rather pleasant when I’m not pissed off about the aura of ignorance surrounding me in my daily real world life. And so what if I’m an “angry atheist”…I prefer to be angry rather than get kicked around forever. I got kicked around enough (physically) by xians (ex-friends) when I left my church years ago, and now I have kids to look out for. Ever get between a mother bear and her cubs? Apparently not because you’re here reading this now. Why shouldn’t I get angry where my kids are concerned.
Rant over. I won’t be angry anymore if I can help it…at least not for tonight.
3 November 2006, on 1:10 am
And she might not even be the same person. If not, more apologies.
3 November 2006, on 1:14 am
It won’t happen overnight though and it may be the next generation, born in the new homeland, that makes the break with tradition.
It would be really great if that could happen that ALL fundies could break from tradition and maybe the world will be a bit more sane. This will be a more difficult task to accomplish while so many muslims send their children to mosque schools where religion is #1 and they are taught that American culture is evil. While Catholic schools attempt to do the same thing, it doesn’t stick for most kids…thank gawd. Hopefully, over time it will stop sticking for muslim kids, as well. Maybe there is hope for the world to finally break down the barriers that religion builds.
3 November 2006, on 1:19 am
This is what I love about all of us, despite any disagreements, we keep our tone civil, respectful, and even friendly. Think of how different this is from our fundie drivebyers.
3 November 2006, on 1:19 am
I mean you and your European-American friends
I should point out that not all my friends are European-American…in fact, many people I work with are Indian (from India), one Korean and a couple of African-Americans and we European-American are only about 50% of this company. Like I said, it’s a very multi-cultural company. (There are also almost an equal number of men working here.)
3 November 2006, on 1:39 am
This is what I love about all of us, despite any disagreements, we keep our tone civil, respectful, and even friendly. Think of how different this is from our fundie drivebyers.
KR - Yes, it’s nice when they leave us alone, isn’t it? If things are kept to a civil tone, we actually have an uninterrupted, productive discussion. I like to hear different viewpoints to analyze my own thoughts on things. We all come from different parts of the country, and world, so our perspectives on certain things will be different at times.
I am trying to sort out this whole muslim culture, and to learn more about it. I am also learning the differences between Muslim sects. I have a Malaysian friend who lives nearby and is married to a European-American. I have known her for about 14 years. I remember the first year we met (at the college I was attending) and she invited me to lunch during Ramadan (which I knew nothing about at the time) and when I was over there she put out the food before me and she sat with nothing, smiling at me. I said, “aren’t you going to eat anything?”, and she said no…she had to wait till after sunset. It was a bit awkward. But she is a very “liberated” woman. She is a nurse, and wears jeans and makes her husband share in the housework.
3 November 2006, on 1:50 am
Do you guys think I’m angry ALL of the time? Are you angry all of the time? I think I’m rather pleasant when I’m not pissed off about the aura of ignorance surrounding me in my daily real world life.
Bean - I don’t think you are angry all the time. I’m not angry all the time. Most people around my neighborhood think I am Mary Fucking Poppins because I smile and nod and hold in my frustrations most of the time and save it for the blogosphere so everyone here gets to see what I have been holding back all day. LOL!
3 November 2006, on 2:34 am
I’m glad to know I’m not the only one!!! And glad to know that having such a duality in my life doesn’t make me hypocritical. I would be scary without Internet access.
3 November 2006, on 3:05 am
I like that title. Maybe I’ll adopt it for my new blog The Fundie Drivebyer - Thanks King Retard.
ps. Jesus loves you too!
3 November 2006, on 9:48 am
King Retard wrote:
I don’t think that was the intent of the posts. And there is a difference between expecting people to conform (don’t think anyone said Immediately) and expecting them NOT to change the society to suit them, e.g. bring lawsuits because someone else supposedly insulted their religion.
3 November 2006, on 10:07 am
Bean wrote:
I’m angry most of the time, about various things, religion being amongst the top items on the list. Just visit my blog for an example. Much of it is just venting, but lately it’s genuine disgust at the mass hysteria being perpetrated upon the world.
3 November 2006, on 6:58 pm
Catherine,
You asked me a question in comment 29 and I didn’t notice it as I hurriedly skimmed over comments earlier. Here’s my response.
When I stated that terrorist attacks are destructive to the US Constitution I wasn’t referring to indirect legislative action by Muslims, but rather the more direct effect of such attacks. 2,996 people were robbed of all their liberties and freedoms on 9/11. Another massive number of citizens in extended families and friends of those killed in the 9/11 terrorist attacks lost a major portion of their liberty. Those suffering from the physical ailments as a result of the attacks have lost some of their freedom.
More indirectly the terrorist attacks effect the willingness of citizens to protect a piece of legislation when they feel their very lives are threatened. The US Constitution means nothing if you’re dead and people are afraid of dying at the whim of Islamic extremists. So I won’t let Muslims off the hook any more than I am willing to let Xians and Jews off the hook when they disregard our rights and freedoms.