More obnoxious than church bells and chimes
20 February 2007 by StardustAmerican Atheists has posted a story about something I have been talking about that has been growing in the Chicagoland area and is becoming a real nuisance for some neighborhoods where mosques have been built. Mosques sending out calls to prayer across neighborhoods via loudspeakers and fill the air with wails to the masses to stop what they are doing and pray to the imaginary sky daddy of Islam. When I worked in Bridgeview,Il. only a few blocks from the Bridgeview Mosque, I heard this crap over loudspeakers five stinking times a day. This noise makes Christian churchbells seem like nothing. It’s hard to tune out, as it’s so loud the wailing sounds came right through closed windows and can be heard despite the hustle and bustle of office noises.
Here is the article describing what is happening because of these calls to prayers from loudpeakers of The Masjid Nur Al-Islam mosque at 21 Church Avenue in Kensington in NYC.
“Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar,” the man sings in simple and repetitive musical notes. The message is in Arabic, and translates to, “God is the greatest.”
In Kensington, the call to prayer is amplified by a loud speaker perched atop the Masjid Nur Al-Islam mosque at 21 Church Avenue.
If you haven’t heard it before, it sounds just like this. Imagine trying to take an afternoon nap and being woken up by this:
Church bells are one thing, but chanting religious dogma over loudspeakers is another. I didn’t even know what category to put this under…we need one for “obnoxious and inconsiderate” maybe?
20 February 2007, on 1:25 am
This quote from the referring article amused me:
Let me guess — turning off the damn loudspeaker would compromise their religion, right?
20 February 2007, on 1:31 am
Sobex, I was going to post a comment that said the same exact thing! “Provided it doesn’t compromise our religion” means they are NOT willing to ease tensions “at any cost.”
These religious folks are such liars!
20 February 2007, on 1:43 am
More proof that it is a sickness that they refuse to address. Why did they leave the safe harbor of their beloved Saudi Arabia or Syria or ???. They left because they were being prosecuted by their own people and they come here to the U.S. to live in CAPITALISTIC freedom. Their religion and all religions of Abraham are an albatross around the neck of freedom everywhere. They do no deserve any respect nor should they receive any, except as is befitting any other person. When they give up the religion of slaves they will be set free to join thee ranks of Men and Women everywhere.
20 February 2007, on 1:45 am
Turn off the loudspeaker? Oh, yeah! Get your congregation a special deal with that phone company with the two-way radio function? Sure, why not?
Unless their motive is to disturb as many infidels/unbelievers/fakirs as possible–to get under their skins and drive them crazy and cause an “incident”, at which point they can complain that Ameriqans aren’t quite so tolerant of the non-xian religions…
Or unless their motive is to lure that one-in-a-million-”teetering”-on-the-verge-of-becoming-muslim–any day now; it could happen, maybe, so just in case…
It seems, from the article, that the non-muslim neighbors of these mosques are (and have been) bending over backwards to avoid a confrontation. Even the police seem to be tiptoeing-on-the-eggshells!
Are there no belfries left in the neighborhood? I’d pay a lot to watch a Cacophon-Off between the two religious dogmas! Hey! Cool! A “dogma-fight”!
20 February 2007, on 1:48 am
If they can’t turn off the loudspeaker, would it possible to turn down the volume?
20 February 2007, on 2:06 am
If they can’t turn off the loudspeaker, would it possible to turn down the volume?
Afraid not, the masses won’t be able to hear the message from allah via a bellowing, wailing, and very annoying human. If anything, they would love to turn it up louder.
20 February 2007, on 2:12 am
Seriously, aren’t there machines that can call like 2000 people a SECOND? There are so many friggin alternatives, yet they won’t pick one. It’s like the damn xians coming onto private property in order to put a pamphlet under my car (more private property)’s windshield wiper.
20 February 2007, on 2:28 am
I think we need to stop being so goddamned tolerant and kick the motherfuckers outta the country. France used to be a decent country, but it’s practically overrun with goddamned muslims. Seventy percent of France’s prison population is Muslim. Kick the motherfuckers back to where they came from.
Do they do that back home? Have crap on loudspeakers like that? Do they all have to pray at the same time? Why can’t they just pray quietly five times a day at the time of their choosing.
All religion sucks, but Islam sucks the most.
20 February 2007, on 2:38 am
I have an idea — whenever the call to prayer goes out, another loudspeaker chants, “This is buuuuuuuuuuuuullshiiiiiiit!”
Can u believe that in the atheist group I belong to there are people who actually defend this piece of shit religion and say it’s all a misunderstanding? They should hand in their cards.
20 February 2007, on 3:10 am
What happened to all the ice-cream trucks? Were they hijacked in the name of Wallah? Peanut butter and jelly be upon them!
Hey, Stardust, I’m a big fan of afternoon naps, BTW.
20 February 2007, on 3:23 am
I had a thought around the line that Jennifer had. Why not start your own religion, some scifi like stuff, worshipping aliens from other planets. Then of course there’d be daily prayers, just like the muslims and the call to prayer would happen just about the time the muslims are praying: “Bow your heads! Gaze upon Uranus!”
20 February 2007, on 3:36 am
I think it is intentionally loud, to get rid of as many infidels from the surrounding areas as possible. That way pure non infidels will fill up the area. To add insult to injury you will sell your house at a loss to get out of the neighborhood.
I could only stand listening to 30 seconds of it, before a fist went through my screen.
Don’t they have noise pollution laws in America?
All I can say is you Americans are a fine example to the rest of the world in religious tolerance.
20 February 2007, on 4:52 am
There are similar problems here in the UK, with some cities in the North of England almost being turned into a Caliphate. Mosques are opening at a great rate throughout the UK, whilst Xtian churches are closing - though the Roman Catholics are now receiving a big boost to their numbers with all the immigrants from Eastern Europe, and are set to become the biggest practising religion again since the Reformation.
Interestingly enough, whilst we have noise pollution laws, and heavy fines for those who break them, but Local Councils - who are in charge of enforcing them - refuse to take any action about mosques and their ‘calling the faithful to prayer’ 5 times a day. Apparently, anyone who suggests that they enforce the noise-abatement legislation is branded as a racist, and is now likely to be visited by our Police for behaviour that is considered offensive by Muslims.
Chuang Tzu once famously said he didn’t know whether he was Chuang Tzu dreaming that he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming that he was Chuang Tzu.
Nowadays, I don’t know if I’m in the UK or in ‘Alice in Wonderland’, but wherever I am, it is not a dream anymore, but is becoming a nightmare.
Seems that if one can get a sufficient number of people to declaim that they all follow the same irrational, superstitious, deeply ignorant, malicious, divisive, sexists, homophobic, anti-reason-and-science, mean, hate-filled, vile-anti-humanitarian repressive mindset, that one can call it a ‘religion’ and be excused from all the constraints that apply to the rest of society.
Whilst ALL religions that try to force their faith of others are an abomination, I doubt that mankind has developed any so-called religion as vile, mean, and pernicious as that of Islam, whose adherents are exhorted to submit to the will of Allah, turn the whole world into a Caliphate, and murder all those who disagree with them.
As for the suggestion that we should ‘kick them back to where they came from’ - large numbers of them are actually born in the UK, so this IS their county, but one which is becoming more and more alien to those of us who have lived here for generations. And saying that makes me a racist, apparently, though our Lords and Masters are now admitting, sotto voce, that their policies of ‘multiculturalism’ have simply provided these people with an excuse remain separate and not integrate, thus forming huge ghettoes that are becoming more and more uncontrollable.
Amusingly (NOT) on a TV programme recently on our BBC, reporters visited some of these radical Muslims who are preaching hatred of and war against we ‘kafirs’ - when the reporter said to these guys, “If you feel that this country is so bad, why don’t you go and settle in a Muslim one?” The answer was, “We wouldn’t get the freedom to do as we like in a Muslim one.”
The only way to stop this nonsense is for NO religions to be given any rights in the public arena, and their protections completely removed. What people choose to practise within the confines of their own homes, or in their places of so-called worship, is acceptable, but only when this does not impinge on people outwith those venues or break the laws of the land.
Sometimes one can be too tolerant.
20 February 2007, on 5:18 am
How is loudspeakers part of their religion?
Is it some sort of hi-fi conspiracy? Was Mohammed the original inventor or stereos back in the day? Did he insist they were used in prayer at that time to call the faithful?
20 February 2007, on 5:25 am
Mohammed was a tin-pot dictator and a child abuser.
20 February 2007, on 7:05 am
I am naturally suspicious of any religion which has demonstrated historically that it cannot play nicely in a secular society. Of course christianity has also demonstrated that it has this problem, but to import a similar problem just seems foolhardy or naive.
20 February 2007, on 8:29 am
Apparently, anyone who suggests that they enforce the noise-abatement legislation is branded as a racist, and is now likely to be visited by our Police for behaviour that is considered offensive by Muslims.
Such hypocrisy. There is a law. When someone breaks a law, he should be punished accordingly. Why not the mosque? Are they suggesting that Muslims be given special privileges and immunities because of their race?
20 February 2007, on 9:51 am
Shoot… And I thought getting accosted by the Mormon Missionaries in the Walmart parking lot here in Utah was bad. I work early in the morning, so therefore, I go to bed early in the evening. If I heard that even once in the evening I would probably be calling the cops, or worse yet, ripping out their fucking loudspeakers and getting my own ass thrown in jail.
20 February 2007, on 9:58 am
Boy arent these religions scary!
20 February 2007, on 10:31 am
Such hypocrisy. There is a law. When someone breaks a law, he should be punished accordingly.
We went through a nightmare 8 months while living in a residential neighborhood of Chicago back in the late 70s. We naively bought our first house by a Catholic church (to the back of us) and their fucking parking lot next to us. We thought how nice it was that we didn’t have a house on one side of us…well…a house would have been better. All kinds of shit went on in that parking lot, teenagers drinking and screaming all night, then during the day kids played baseball and we had broken windows from them wacking the ball into the house, they gathered there to bless their fucking animals at 6 a.m., and so on…not to mention the umpteen masses they have on Sunday mornings with cars coming and going (that part we expected). We tried talking to the priests about the crap going on in THEIR parking lot. They said it was a police matter…we said it is your parking lot. If you call, they will do something, if we call they do nothing. They said they would do nothing…it’s our problem. So we called the Chicago Police dept…they said to talk to the church about it, and we said we DID talk to the church and they said to talk to the police. The police said it is a church property and the church problem. We went to the church, they said to go to the police, we went to the police, they said go to the church! (Keep in mind I was pregnant at the time with a high-risk pregnancy…so much for pro-life! They didn’t care if I lost the baby.)
THEN, summer came and what do they put up? A CARNIVAL complete with beer tent and Bingo tent right next to our bedroom and livingroom windows. Since we had no a/c we could not shut it out at all. We had drunken people puking in our yard, leaning on our house smoking pot, drunken priests yelling playing Bingo right along with all the sinners. We heard “B - 12″ etc. for HOURS over a loudspeaker along with circus music. It was one of the worst weeks of our lives. We sold the house to a Chicago cop soon after. It was a beautiful house, but I was willing to live in a shack to get away from that shit.
So we moved to Burbank, which is next to Bridgeview and guess what? Muslim invasion and muslim mosques with their goddam chanting shit! We now live a far south suburb and where we are we can only hear birds singing. However, in the center of town and right across the street from some good friends of mine is a Methodist church which plays an HOUR of fucking church chimes every single day so the whole old part of town can hear it even with windows closed and my friend works midnights and has been woken up by this shit every day for the couple of decades they have been living there. They love their house, which has historical status, so they endure the church shit.
Another muslim mosque was recently built near where my brother lives in Orland Park. It’s right by a golf course. Business is slacking there because golfers are getting sick of hearing the wailing while they are trying to enjoy a game of golf. When people have a party during the day even, if it gets too loud the cops come and say to turn it down. But when religion is involved, they do nothing.
As long as religion is attached to the obnoxious activity, it’s ok.
20 February 2007, on 11:18 am
How can they call that racism? Muslims aren’t a race, correct? What won’t they do to protect religion?
20 February 2007, on 1:00 pm
Don’t noise pollution laws against excessively loud steroes and such apply to this? Is there a sixth pillar of Islam about annoying the hell out of the infidel?
20 February 2007, on 1:08 pm
I, say grab em by the neck and send them back
to the country from which they came.
If we appease this vermin we will end up like
the netherland’s
20 February 2007, on 1:56 pm
Is there a sixth pillar of Islam about annoying the hell out of the infidel?
It is the ‘God’ imposed duty of all the faithful to exterminate the kafir (unbeliever) by any and all means!
20 February 2007, on 2:44 pm
Apparently, this issue was up for vote in Michigan in 2004. I found this on Dhimmi Watch website:
I am trying to find out how this turned out.
20 February 2007, on 2:46 pm
Newhound’s has a post up basicaily saying we
should appease the poor muslim’s and don’t
hurt their feeling’s. how i hate pc liberal’s
there’s no such thing as a moderate muslim.
I hate faux new’s plus Iam very liberal except
when it comes to gawd belief, I give no quarter
to the faithful xtian or muslim and new age b.s.
20 February 2007, on 2:54 pm
Update to comment #25
City officials finally allowed the mosque to do the call to prayer with loudspeakers between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m.
20 February 2007, on 2:55 pm
Muslims aren’t a race, correct?
Correct, though they see themselves as a ‘nation’! Go figure?
What won’t they do to protect religion?
Haven’t you noticed that theists call atheism a ‘religion’ when they are trying to attack and undermine it, whilst simultaneously denying it the protective status that our societies grant to ‘real’ religions (for no good reason whatsoever).
20 February 2007, on 2:55 pm
Newhound’s has a post up basicaily saying we
should appease the poor muslim’s and don’t
hurt their feeling’s.
It’s one thing to be tolerant and allow mosques to be built and let people do whatever floats their boat, but it’s another when they want to impose their religion on all surrounding society in such a BLARING and blatant way, AND get government support for it!
20 February 2007, on 2:56 pm
Thanks [I think], Stardust , for raising our ‘hackles’, or if one prefers…’getting our dander up’?…
[Where are my 'tap' shoes?]:
“Muslims!…Xtians!…
Hackles!…Dander!…
Let’s call the whole thing off! ”
[or maybe: 1) "Let's tell the whole world off!" or 2) "Let's throw the fuckheads out!" or...
(yours?) 3) " ________!"
You guys probably know the old 'malady'!
Syrius-ly, folks...as in the dog star?...or maybe dog shit-like...
"Watch where you step?"...erm..."Be careful what you...'ass' for?"
This whole subject matter highlights, to me at least, the 'syrius' importance of us atheists acting like town criers to the world. ["World Criers"?] In other words, we’re more and more, individually, coming out of our ‘closets’, proclaiming our atheism; and, rightfully, becoming much more strident in our exposing religion’s bullshit. At least, these days, we have Dawkins and others gaining more and more broad public attention and leading the way. This subject is one more important issue that…forthwith…should definitely be included, even highlighted, in any media discussions about religions and their divisiveness and imminent danger to the survival of any rational society…let alone a SECULAR democracy.
So far, the rather new, fancy mosque, a few blocks from me, hasn’t started that kind of obnoxious bullshit.
[Or maybe the volume just hasn't been turned up yet.]
One of my pet peeves has ALWAYS been, people bothering one another with their loud music or whatever.
When it eminates from organized GROUP bullshit…it’s even more of a ‘pet peeve’ provoker.
Hmmm… I’ve never really been into owning guns [or roses, for that matter!]…but…
HEY!…”No more Mr. Nice Guy!”…?
[Googles for NRA, and associated equipment]
20 February 2007, on 3:02 pm
So far, the rather new, fancy mosque, a few blocks from me, hasn’t started that kind of obnoxious bullshit.
It’s only a mater of time.
After all, it was the great camel-shagger himself who ordered the ‘call to prayer for the faithful’, and believers just have to do what he says, right!
He also said it was OK to shag pre-pubescent little girls, so presumably ALL Muslims are doing that too?
20 February 2007, on 3:02 pm
So far, the rather new, fancy mosque, a few blocks from me, hasn’t started that kind of obnoxious bullshit.
ChuckA - The mosques in Bridgeview and Orland Park worked it up gradually to the obnoxious volume it is now, the noise grows with the membership growth.
20 February 2007, on 3:06 pm
But Saudi Arabia buys so many arms from the UK, that whatever they do, or support (like the expansion of extremist mosques in our country), is OK with our pusillanimous and corrupt government.
Why, only recently, they incurred the wrath of their own law-enforcement agencies, and the EU, for forcibly closing down a corruption investigation in the UK that involved those bent Saud bastards - and a large number of top UK businessmen and Gov’t officials.
20 February 2007, on 3:07 pm
Sorry for the bold text - dunno what’s going wrong with my tags - perhaps I’m drunk again.
20 February 2007, on 3:09 pm
[Mohammad] also said it was OK to shag pre-pubescent little girls, so presumably ALL Muslims are doing that too?
Will our authorities let them off with that on the grounds that it is sanctioned culturally and religiously?
20 February 2007, on 3:30 pm
Here’s a translation of the adhan that is chanted over the loudspeakers; note that the Hamtramck City Council (MI) sees nothing wrong with allowing mosques to broadcast an explicit statement of Islam’s superiority to all other religions, five times a day:
Allah is great, Allah is great
Allah is great, Allah is great
I bear witness there is no deity but Allah
I bear witness there is no deity but Allah
I bear witness that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of Allah
I bear witness that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of Allah
Hurry to the prayer
Hurry to the prayer
Hurry to the success
Hurry to the success
Allah is great, Allah is great
There is no deity but Allah
20 February 2007, on 3:33 pm
Noise pollution is noise pollution, no matter who’s causing it or what it actually is. I say pass the ordnances against all religion-caused noise (loud-ass church bells, too) and enforce them against all as well.
If a muslim then complained that how would mosque-goers know when to pray, I would reply, “If they’re True Muslims (TM), they don’t need reminding; if they’re not, they’ll ignore the call to prayer anyway.” After all, unless they actually enter the mosque to pray and are counted as they do so, there’s no guarantee they’re actually obeying the call and praying when it blares out.
And of course Islam is not a “race!” Just try telling the elitist Saudis that all other muslims from different races and ethnicities are “equal” to them–!
20 February 2007, on 3:42 pm
And of course Islam is not a “race!” Just try telling the elitist Saudis that all other muslims from different races and ethnicities are “equal” to them–!
The usual crap they come out with is that everyone (who submits) is equal in the eyes of ‘God’ - even women, lol!
20 February 2007, on 3:46 pm
I say pass the ordnances against all religion-caused noise (loud-ass church bells, too) and enforce them against all as well.
Right on, Eve! My friend who lives across the street from the Methodist church and their LOUD carillon would say RAMEN!
If a muslim then complained that how would mosque-goers know when to pray, I would reply, “If they’re True Muslims ™, they don’t need reminding; if they’re not, they’ll ignore the call to prayer anyway.”
This is an excellent point and I don’t understand why city councils don’t see it that way. Maybe mosque leaders should just give all muslims in their membership special watches that beep when it’s time to moon the west?
20 February 2007, on 3:59 pm
Over here, one of the main problems isn’t the mosques per se, but the fact that they are hotbeds of radicalism, many of which are funded by Saudi Arabia, where they extol the virtues of suicide bombing, 9/11, and all the usual atrocities which the Qur’an exhorts them to do to us kafirs.
When one such radical cleric was kicked out of the Finsbury Park mosque in London - due to our media protesting at his hate-filled speeches - he set up in the public street outside. Result, the street was blocked by the faithful attending his meetings, traffic was stopped, and the Metropolitan Police threatened to arrest any of the non-Muslim locals who lived in the street who objected to their lives being unlawfully impeded by this gang of would-be murderous shite.
Welcome to the wonderful world of ‘Alice in Wonderland’.
Thanks to further media complaints and exposees, however, this same cleric was finally arrested, tried for incitement, and ordered to be extradited. However, he is currently re-appealing - at the taxpayers’ expense.
But, hey, don’t you dare criticise his religion, or our boys in blue will come round in the small hours, kick your door in, and drag you off to jail on a charge of religious hate-crime.
Fuck them all, is what I say!
20 February 2007, on 4:21 pm
And these religious asshats wonder why atheists are so “angry” and “intolerant”.
20 February 2007, on 4:57 pm
Eve, as to your ‘Right-on!’ comment:
“Noise pollution is noise pollution, no matter who’s causing it or what it actually is. I say pass the ordnances against all religion-caused noise (loud-ass church bells, too) and enforce them against all as well.”
EXACTLY!
As to your…
“If a muslim then complained that how would mosque-goers know when to pray”…
I would reply: “Haven’t you seen the new multi-lingual Timex Mohammered watch, with the five times a day auto-electric jolt to the wrist and optional speaker message? The message volume level is designed, so only the wearer can hear it.
What’s that?…oh, yeah…it ‘chants’ out [I'm translating!]: “get your stupid, fucking ass down on that paultry prayer rug, IMMEDIATELY!…you brainwashed, moronic asshole…bow down to thy imaginary, tyranical, do nothing, scheming, fuck everybody and everything, always…Oscar winning for ‘Worst human kiss-ass idea, ever!’ ultimate gawd-fuck!”
Of course; the watch would also have the popular option, besides a +or- voltage-jolt adjustment, of personalizing the message…
by adding, BEFORE the message; either:
1) the worshippers name…or…
2) “You filthy swine-dog!”…
Actually, simply “Svein-hunt” on the German model!
All for $19.99…plus shipping and guaranteed, mindless handling.
20 February 2007, on 5:01 pm
All for $19.99…plus shipping and guaranteed, mindless handling.
So, you got your website and web-shop up and running quickly then, Chuck!
20 February 2007, on 5:03 pm
This is slightly OT but somewhat related also. It a debate beween atheist Sam Harris and muslim Reza Aslan.
http://richarddawkins.net/article,642,n,n
Aslan certainly is no fundamentalist, but he showcases the mindset that provides shelter to this religious dumbshitness. It is a good debate to watch if you have the time.
20 February 2007, on 5:47 pm
Eve beat me to it.
I was wondering how the Muslims knew when to break into the rhythm of their days to bend over and as she says, “moon the west”. No fair that they have to be reminded. A good and true Muslim would have an innate sense of when to pray. They shouldn’t need to be reminded, especially with such blaring and peace-breaking, impolite interruptions to the days of the general public.
This is noise polution, and should be treated as such.
20 February 2007, on 6:33 pm
This is slightly OT but somewhat related also. It a debate beween atheist Sam Harris and muslim Reza Aslan.
http://richarddawkins.net/article,642,n,n
If only I didn’t have to go thru’ the hassle of d/l QuickTime first - no thanks.
20 February 2007, on 7:09 pm
For a short time when I was fifteen, my family lived in an apartment in Villa Park, IL. It was only one-bedroom, so my brother and I shared an air mattress on the floor in the other room. The gentleman who lived below us was apparently some kind of Muslim. Now, sleeping is hard enough when I’m sharing a bed with my brother, and when the bed half-deflates over the course of the night, but it was fucking impossible once the guy below started praying at 6 AM.
So, yeah, I have no sympathy for this idiocy. I’ll defend Muslims against bigotry (because no one deserves to be firebombed because of the color of their skin/reigious creed/sexuality, etc.), but not against courtesy. If I had car speakers that played that loud, I’d get pulled over. If I had a party that loud, it’d get broken up. Having a religious gathering that loud should be subject to the same laws. Your freedom to practice your religion ends at my ears.
So, who wants to start a new religion across from that mosque? I’m suggesting “First Church of Van Halen, Our Lady of ‘Panama.’” Our prayer song could be played at maximum volume on continuous loop from 6 AM to 11 PM, as per our holy writ.
20 February 2007, on 7:35 pm
OK, FUBAR, I eventually got it to work with RealPlayer, and listened for 20 minutes, whilst gritting my teeth.
Kirsch then turned to Harris and said that both he and Azlan have a similar view - they view religion from the point of view that there is…
So, as a purely academic exercise, religion can be dressed up as something worthy of merit, but then so can the study of nose-pickings, as I have said elsewhere.
Which reminds me of a guy I knew who once wrote a PhD thesis entitled, ‘Why did Stephen Dedalus pick his nose?’ - and he was awarded his Doctorate for it!
Thus far into the debate, and the only person to mention that religion is nothing but a massive lie which is used by dysfunctional people to prop up their own failings as human beings was Harris.
The fact that Kirsch and Aslan may find religion a delightful study is irrelevant, since the debate should be about whether there are valid reasons to credit religion per se with any merit whatsoever, and if so, how do the apologists for it correlate that with the conflicting ‘beliefs’ of competing religions.
Maybe Harris explored this later in the debate, but by then I’d had enough. As far as I could determine, this was not an honest debate, just an excuse for two religious apologists to get together and try to make themselves look clever and their faith appear reasonable, whilst attempting to demolish anything Harris - the only voice of reason, whatever Kirsch and Azlan said to the contrary.
If I want to waste my time with sophist crap, I can go and read Platinga - who some maintain is the most brilliant Philosopher of Religion who has ever lived (the proof of that being that he believes in so-called ‘Intelligent Design’)!
I don’t care how many books Azlan and Kirsch have written between them - I doubt if they’ve ever said so much as a single word that’s worth listening to.
20 February 2007, on 7:36 pm
Thanks FUBAR for that link. (#44)
Why are atheists always outnumbered for these debates and discussions? It’s never a fair debate. Frustrating! Azlan and Kirsch are arrogant asshats.
20 February 2007, on 8:37 pm
Tom Foss, my personal favorite for such an experiment would be Rob Zombie’s Hellbilly Deluxe, one of my all-time favorite albums - danceable, singable, and demonic!
Love ya on Pharyngula and twopercent, by the way; you’ve got a heckuva lot more patience than I have!
20 February 2007, on 9:04 pm
You could start a bumper sticker campaign. Or display posters in windows of stores. Like Burqas are for slaves. The U.S. Where woman are equal to men. As well as posters for beach vacations with plenty of skin showing. Place these in neighborhoods of Muslims. Slowly, subtlely drip freedom on them so that they recognize that we have something that they don’t. And the lie of theirs and all religion becomes obvious.
20 February 2007, on 9:29 pm
TOG said: “The fact that Kirsch and Aslan may find religion a delightful study is irrelevant, since the debate should be about whether there are valid reasons to credit religion per se with any merit whatsoever, and if so, how do the apologists for it correlate that with the conflicting ‘beliefs’ of competing religions.”
Exactly! I myself find religion fascinating in that it is such a complex topic and so ingrained into the human condition as a whole. But, just as you point out, Kirsch and Aslan totally miss the point in that it has no truth in it.
Aslan’s attitude seems to me (I’ve watched the debate 2 and 1/2 times on CSPAN2) to be: “Since religion is viewed as a valid academic area, and one is capable of having a sophisticated attitude toward it, then it should be given free reign and not criticized.”
Harris’s whole point (both in the debate and in the books “Letter to a Christian Nation” and “The End of Faith”) is that he has no beef per se with a personal and individual viewpoint of religion such as Aslan has, but that the majority (or at least a very large segment) of religious people have no such sophistication of viewpoint and we get retards running around thumping bables and dimwits broadcasting irritating bullshit on loudspeakers.
Aslan’s argument could be summed up as: “I am an intellectual regarding religion; therefore religion is a good thing.”
Like you mentioned TOG, one can write a dissertation on nose-picking, but that does not make nose-picking a good thing.
Well, at least in public!
If anyone can find the patience to watch the entire thing, you’ll see Aslan falter pretty badly at the end. Harris clearly came out on top.
20 February 2007, on 10:10 pm
Better know and follow the laws when traveling internationally (not that Saudi Arabia is on my travel list). Check out this story:
20 face lash, prison for dancing in Saudi Arabia
The article goes on to say:
This is the stuff that Harris is talking about, and the other two clowns, Kirsch and Aslan just don’t get it.
20 February 2007, on 10:39 pm
If I lived near one of those mosques I’d say I was bound by my “faith” to play this song by Slayer at full volume:
Cult
20 February 2007, on 10:56 pm
I’d have to go with the finale of 1812 Overture, with about 10 155mm howitzers setup for the cannon fire.
20 February 2007, on 10:58 pm
You know what would be REALLY fucking funny? Get a copy of the chant, and play at all the wrong times…
20 February 2007, on 10:58 pm
That reminds me of words written by Orwell in “1984.”
“Then the face of Big Brother faded away again, and instead the three slogans of the Party stood out in bold capitals:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH”
If I had to choose between the Orwellian nightmare and Saudi Arabia, I’d probably choose to live in a flat beside Winston.
Yeah, Kirsch and Aslan suffer from that most obnoxious of mental diseases that infects those with religious sympathies variously called: selective observation, confirmation bias, or count the hits ignore the misses.
For every old christian lady that the fantasy of heaven has helped die in peace, 10 others are arrested for having a drink in Saudi Arabia, taught misinformation in science class in Alabama, or otherwise fucked by that ever-present religious dildo.
20 February 2007, on 11:17 pm
You know what would be REALLY fucking funny? Get a copy of the chant, and play at all the wrong times…
Brilliant!
21 February 2007, on 12:05 am
Do you know what is really fucking funny? The mythological tale that explains why muslims pray 5 times a day. The short version is that Allah wanted Muhammad’s followers to pray 50 times, and on his way back down from heaven, Moses told Muhammad that there was no way his followers were capable of praying this many times, and to go back and talk to god and negotiate a lesser amount, until, they reached the amount of 5 times. Yes, that story is silly, but according to the infallable word of the Koran. My source is “The Truth About Muhammad, Founder of the World’s Most Intolerant Religion” by Robert Spencer.
I never get tired of telling that story to “believers” that I know, watching them laugh, then following it up with asking how their book explains things.
21 February 2007, on 1:11 am
FUBAR for Christ…Like you, I had seen the ‘discussion’ on CSPAN2. When I saw it listed on the schedule, I was really looking forward to it; but was totally disappointed for the same reasons you, Old Git and others have expressed.
Aslan, whom I had seen on last season’s Bill Maher show, seemed to me, to blab on and on; saying really nothing much of any real substance. Several times he and Harris referred to previous, mutual agreements; but seemed to be on different ‘tracks’. Harris just played it rather ‘cool’, in my opinion.
I agree totally with your final conclusion that: “Harris clearly came out on top.” Toward the end, if I recall, Harris just had, what I interpreted as, a rather relaxed, satisfied look on his face; even though Aslan continued taking up most of the remaining time.
As to Kirsch…his name reminds me of an old ’standard’ drapery rod brand…and come to think of it, he did seem to be ‘hanging around’, helping to ’support’ the “Xtian drapery”!
As Stardust observed…something that always ticks me off, too:
“Why are atheists always outnumbered for these debates and discussions? It’s never a fair debate.”
My thought is, that the religionists know that they have no real case when it comes to demonstrating any real evidence or facts for their beliefs. By overloading their ‘asshat’ side of the equation; they can better keep the atheist side quiet, longer; and both distract and clutter the air, using more purely irrational bullshit.
I had recorded the discussion on my “DVR”; but decided it wasn’t worth ‘archiving’.
“As was my ‘wont’!”
21 February 2007, on 3:12 am
off topic,post 34 tip “o” pint I to am fond of
the intoxicating beverages.
In need of a good laugh?
Read the comment’s at newshounds about the muslim cabbies. talk about ignorant!
stardust, sorry to hear you have put with all
that noise. In my neck of the wood’s all we have to put up with is sunday morning sheeple
call.muslim’s have not infitrated…..yet
(fingers crossed)
21 February 2007, on 3:21 am
sorry, should read PUT UP WITH ALL THAT NOISE!
21 February 2007, on 3:38 am
There must be some way to commit espionage, no?
Like substituting/switching tapes (imagine the collective looks as Barry Manilow comes blasting out of the speakers), or the surreptitious snip of a wire here & there? Or pouring un-gelled jello into the loudspeakers when no-one’s looking?
21 February 2007, on 4:22 am
I’ve been attending to the discussions on this site for a while. I am a PhD student with many types of friends. The only reason I am contributing to this discussion is because I have relevant experiences. I have muslim friends, and have had religous discussions with them.
My basic premise is that ALL books are written by people. ALL people have biases and flaws. The Koran is a book, and therefore was written by flawed people.
My best, and most rational muslim friend (an economics graduate student) denies this.
He told me that his belief explicitly includes that his book is divinely inspired. If my conclusion is true, then he would not believe in Islam. Since he still believes, then the logical conclusion is that my initial premise is false! He concludes that the Koran was not written by humans!
21 February 2007, on 6:11 am
Various posters have suggested retaliatory noise, or sabotaging the speaker system, or some such ‘get your own back’ schemes, but I suggest that, in the USA as in the UK, it would result in YOU being treated by the authorities as some kind of criminal.
In the UK, they would use noise abatement laws to prosecute you for ‘non-religious noise’, as well as being able to take criminal proceedings for ‘conduct likely to give rise to a breach of the peace’, or under the new anti-discrimination against religion laws that our dear Tony Baloney want to impose on non-believers (even if you’re only a non-believer in someone else’s religion).
In the US, I suspect it would be much the same, except that the Muslims could also claim that you were infringing their First Amendment rights as well.
Funny, isn’t how, how all these groups that claim their ‘rights’ overlook completely the fact that all rights granted by society have concomitant responsibilities - i.e. such as not annoying others with your religious practices!
Yep, it’s certainly a one-sided world - especially when it comes to religion.
The sooner that ALL religion is banned, except between consenting adults in private, the better!
21 February 2007, on 6:34 am
Aslan’s attitude seems to me (I’ve watched the debate 2 and 1/2 times on CSPAN2) to be: “Since religion is viewed as a valid academic area, and one is capable of having a sophisticated attitude toward it, then it should be given free reign and not criticized.”
By which attitude we can justify the study of absolutely ANYTHING as worthy of merit qua ’study’ - how soon before we are setting up ‘Faculties of Funny Walks’ (to paraphrase the Pythons) - mind you, we already have Faculties of Funny Talks, though they are not actually called that, lol.
21 February 2007, on 9:59 am
An Islamic fundamentalist shot and killed a female Pakistani minister yesterday because of her refusal to wear a Muslim veil.
Police said that the bearded attacker had singled out the prominent women’s rights activist in the belief that women should not be in politics.
Zilla Huma Usman, the Punjab provincial minister for social welfare and supporter of President Musharraf, was shot as she prepared to address a public gathering in the town of Gujranwala, 70km (43 miles) north of the provincial capital, Lahore. As party members threw rose petals at her, the gunman shot her in the head, police said. They identified the attacker as Malulvi Ghulam Sarwar and said that he was opposed to the participation of women in politics and the refusal of many professional women in Pakistan to wear the veil.
“He killed her because she was not observing the Islamic code of dress. She was also campaigning for emancipation of women,” Nazir Ahmad, a police officer, said.
Mrs Usman, 35, was wearing the shalwar kameez adopted by many professional women in Pakistan, but did not cover her head. She was airlifted to Lahore after the attack, and died in hospital.
Mr Sarwar, a stonemason in his mid40s, appeared calm when he told a television channel that he had carried out God’s order to kill women who sinned. “I have no regrets. I just obeyed Allah’s commandment,” he said. Islam did not allow women to hold positions of leadership, he claimed. “I will kill all those women who do not follow the right path, if I am freed again,” he said.
21 February 2007, on 10:21 am
There must be some way to commit espionage, no?
Where did all the mobsters go when you need them? (joking, I am not promoting organized crime, but I can fantasize can’t I?)
21 February 2007, on 10:52 am
With all respect, jon P., Your friend is a friggin’ idiot.
21 February 2007, on 10:54 am
I daresay that could happen in some communities in the US, but hardly universally.
I wonder what would happen if a xian church and a islum musk were placed side by side. Would we witness a mini-crusade? Or a battle of the ideologies played over loudspeaker?
21 February 2007, on 11:05 am
I wonder what would happen if a xian church and a islum musk were placed side by side. Would we witness a mini-crusade? Or a battle of the ideologies played over loudspeaker?
ROTF! That would make for an excellent Monty Python movie!
21 February 2007, on 12:27 pm
Jon P said…
There is a basic semantic flaw in the foregoing.
Whilst the Qur’an was physically written by the humans who followed Muhammad, Muslims, declare that it was dictated to him by Gabriel, one of ‘God’s’ ‘Archangels’, and thus is the ‘divinely word of Allah’.
Incidentally, Muhammad couldn’t write ‘Gabriel’s’ words down himself, because he was an illiterate, though this is not regarded as having any bearing on his paedophilia.
Thus, your Muslim friend is pedantically correct, providing one is prepared to accept that this ‘god’ to which he refers actually exists, despite the fact that no-one has ever been able to produce any credible evidence to substantiate that. Until such time as such evidence is forthcoming, your friend is nothing other than a dysfunctionally delusional moron.
BTW, does the fact that you are a PhD student have any relevance to your point?
21 February 2007, on 12:40 pm
So much for the cack that some Muslims like to give out about women being equal to men in the eyes of ‘God’. Pure shite, all of it. The Muslim religion is the most patriarchal, misogynistic, and backward of all the Abrahamic based mythologies - and that’s saying something!
21 February 2007, on 3:21 pm
Another story from Malaysia. How Orwellian is right!
Islamic spies to snoop on lovers
Fundamentalists of all sorts cannot be allowed to gain control of free, secular governments. That is why we as atheists must be ever vigilant.
21 February 2007, on 3:30 pm
TOG:
I call proselytizing “mental masturbation”–it’s like watching someone “jack-off”, in a frenzy of orgasmic delight! Ugh!
I prefer real orgasms…
21 February 2007, on 3:42 pm
I prefer real orgasms…
Me too!!!
21 February 2007, on 3:47 pm
Fundamentalists of all sorts cannot be allowed to gain control of free, secular governments. That is why we as atheists must be ever vigilant.
Hence, I make no apology for reiterating…
For the avoidance of doubt, I consider that places of so-called worship are deemed to be ‘private’ - provided they do not call the ‘faithful’ to prayer in such a way that it impinges on others who do not share their faith.
21 February 2007, on 5:44 pm
^ Hear, hear, Old Git.
On the other hand, either Revenant’s idea of broadcasting the call to prayer at the wrong times, or the battling temples side by side would make for some interesting times to say the least–!
21 February 2007, on 6:09 pm
When I lived in Northern Virginia (Loudoun County), there was a church in a business park a couple mikes away. Well, on Sunday mornings when they closed session, the local sheriffs would be out directing traffic because these numbnuts just can’t wait for normal traffic. So WE had to wait for THEM to pull out of the business park. And using public employees to boot. I’ll bet they didn’t pay the sheriff’s salaries for those hours.
21 February 2007, on 7:05 pm
^ Sounds like a typical case of religious folks demanding special treatment to me.
22 February 2007, on 1:10 am
Mohammadans, christers, Etc. they are all about the same in their interpretation of scripture. Each of them claim primacy right to govern the world as they see fit even if it includes, and it does, killing people. They claim they are peaceful but the world stage betrays them. We do not owe them any respect and we certainly do not owe them any leeway to dictate what they are doing that takes away the rights of people who lived here before they came.
22 February 2007, on 2:25 am
It’s time to revive the fine art of organ grinding, with a monkey companion. The grinder must have a bullhorn, through which he’ll announce, “Come, an’ a worship a you masta with a beer an’ a pasta! Praise to the Flying Spaghetti Monster!! (marinara be upon Him)”
How many beer and pasta breaks do you think the FSM would require a day? 3? 5? On the hour?
22 February 2007, on 11:51 am
Here’s a little ditty Sean wrote Feb. 1, 2006:
You say Muhammed
And I say Mohammed
You say potahto
And I say potahta
Muhammed, Mohammed, potahto, retahded
Let’s call the whole thing off
(We could have organ grinder sing this through the streets over loudspeaker.)
22 February 2007, on 3:09 pm
Karen, Stardust
Those are very good.