Moderator: Seriously? You THINK that this imaginary friend lines up best with science and reality? Care to share how you came to this conclusion?

You still have not explained HOW you think that your imaginary friend lines up best with science and reality. We cannot debate the issue if we don’t know what the hell you are talking about.

Sure. Science requires that the physical universe could not have been physically created. Therefore, it had to have been created by something independent of physical constraints. God is the only conclusion consistant with the scientific requirement.

Really? Science has drawn these absolute conclusions? I was always taught in my education in astronomy that these are THEORIES about how the universe came to be, based on knowledge and EVIDENCE, a collection of data over long periods of time, using various methods and analyzed by individuals with much higher levels of education and experience in the field of Astronomy than you and I will ever have. Where are YOU getting your information from? Some redneck fundie pastor who spoonfeeds you these myths and tells you what to believe? Or are you so brainwashed that you can not differentiate science and your sky daddy beliefs. Have you even taken an astronomy course? I have. It will get you thinking about so many possibilities beyond your ancient beliefs.

If there is another conclusion other than unbelief I’m very interested.

If you were truly interested, you would be seeking out all of the credible science sites, keeping up with information from NASA, and other highly recognized science sources. Also, the Ivy League universities have science departments with websites which explain everything you wish to know about recent explorations and information. You have to start EDUCATING YOURSELF, which is what I do.

This is enough to keep you busy for a few months. Educate yourself. We have no more to discuss with you since you are only talking in circles. Don’t bother to respond, you have taken this comment thread WAY off topic of the original post and now conversation has been sidetracked. You are done here.

Wish you’d kept the second post and deleted the first. As I noted, the first was accidentally sent mid draft, the second was complete.

Lee, There was little difference between the first draft and second. You were simply repeating yourself.

Persecution complex or no, the moderator was angry and defensive. By the way, first I’ve seen the term Xian, found much humor in it.

Why is disagreeing with you Xians always interpreted as anger? Because we demand answers and evidence, that is anger? No, it is just demanding answers for your outrageous claim for the existence of supernatural beings. Then you turn into a victim when you cannot answer. Or you simply repeat the same accusations and use your circular reasoning again.

No intent to badger,

Then why then do you continue to do so? Being an ex-Xian, I know you are trying to hammer home YOUR points. But you are on an atheist blog and are going to hear strong counterpoints to your fantasies.

I was simply trying to learn what atheists believe.

We told you and you refuse to accept our answers. The way you are commenting seems an attempt to lead us to your way of thinking. That is not going to happen around here.

I was also not being redundant. Initial responses to my query were inconsistnat or not understood, I simply continued to converse to clear the logic and gain understanding of the positions being presented.

The answers provided were indeed consistant, and if you did not understand them, you should have stated that you do not understand and we would try to explain it in another way. Instead, you keep asking questions and making false statements about us that are obvious attempts to lead us to your way of thinking. Most of us know the games Xians play.

There was also no attempt to tell you what you believed, I simply attempted to frame what I thought was being conveyed in an effort for clarity.

No, you were telling us that we have a belief system…we disagreed…and you continued by telling us we have a belief system, we disagreed and gave reasons why, and you continued to tell us we have a belief system, and so on, and so on.

What I think I understand from this discussion is that atheist belief is based on unbelief and reality, you don’t like dogma, and you have seen no proof that god exists therefore you assert he does not.

Until someone comes up with some verifiable evidence to the contrary, that is what we can assume. And you are correct when you say we do not like dogma.

You have challenged me to answer your questions and it is only fair since you have made an attempt to answer mine.

Where is this God? or, as I asked it, what is the concrete reason I believe the way I do? The physical universe.

Despite all the space exploration, and massive telescopes sending back space images and data, absolutely no evidence has been found to support the existence of your sky daddy. Not even a glimmer.

It could not have created itself and it could not have existed forever,

Why not? How do you know? Your beliefs are based on something that you want to believe, not on scientific evidence. Fundamentalists do not consider any other possibilities because they are afraid of their fantasies being wiped away and you will have to accept the reality of life, and death…and know you are on your own. That reality is uncomfortable to most humans.

both those explanations are contrary to the nature of physical existance. Also, balance of the univers, irreducible complexity, and supernatural occurances indicating there is more to existance than just this physical condition.

The only “proofs” of supernatural occurrences are “personal experiences” and feelings of the person who claims to have experienced the “supernatural occurrence”. Again, no evidence is ever found outside the mind of the believer. God is in your head. If you were on a deserted island with no other people, with no food or drinking water, you would surely die. You could pray and pray and pray, but you would die of thirst and starvation. This happens to millions around the world on a daily basis….they pray to a silent god and still die alone. Only humans can come to the aid and rescue of other humans. There is no god or magical genie to take care of you.

In the end, either God is and He created this universe or he is not and the universe either created itself or has existed forever.

God botherers choose to believe the first part of that, and disregard any other possibilities and scientific data and research because it threatens what you wish to believe on faith. We all want to live forever, but some of us accept the nature of things, while others create fantasies of everlasting life in order to cope better. Some of us, however, do not need the fantasy to cope with reality.

One has to be true which requires the other can’t be true and is therefore just a fairy tale and wishful thinking. I believe in God because I think His creating what is lines up best with science and reality.

Seriously? You THINK that this imaginary friend lines up best with science and reality? Care to share how you came to this conclusion? Religious faith in the supernatural is not based on scientific evidence, not based on any kind of proof at all. Therefore, science and faith in supernatural beings are two separate things. One has nothing to do with the other. Most mainstream god botherers understand this.

Moderators will continue to respond to you in this way…bolded type into your comment, because it is easier to address each and every one of your points. We are not altering any of your words.

There are several moderators here, not just one. You are being redundant, ignoring what other commenters have responded to you, and you are definitely coming across as an antagonistic troll.

If you wish to continue discussion here, then quit trying to label us, telling us what we think, and discuss in a respectful manner and stop the flame-baiting.

Thank you.

Our “beliefs” are grounded in reality and scientific EVIDENCE. One newly acquired belief of mine is that you are an antagonistic troll.

- There is no invisible sky daddy

No evidence has ever been presented which would prove otherwise.

- The universe was not created by god

Again, no evidence to the contrary has ever been provided.

- What can be known about the universe will eventually be known
- Some things about the universe may never be known.

These are statements of fact, not a set of beliefs.

I’m not the one insisting atheism is a belief system, you are by listing the things you believe.

Call it what you want, but at least we are thinkers. We do not cling to childish imaginary friends.

Although I commend and agree with your point that religion is learned, I would tend to expand that point a little. Although I readily agree that culturally specific religious practices and customs are learned, it still seems to me (layman with only my lay observation to support this perspective) that superstitions and fear of the supernatural are hard-wired into the human psyche. Transforming this superstition into a belief system based on evidence (science/facts) and logic is the question at hand. How is “unbelief” as a philosophical cornerstone, any more legitimate than the “faith” the theist relies on?

While humans may exhibit superstitious tendencies, most of which are learned by their elders, this does not mean that there are gods, goddesses or any other supernatural elements at work. Believing so is well..umm..superstitious fantasy.

You are forcing people to repeat themselves because you fail to read or you are simply being antagonizing. Unbelief is based on reality, theists rely on “faith”…which is equal to fantasy and wishful thinking. I am not repeating this for you again.

Although you say you disagree with my view that not knowing how the universe started is a reasonable core value, you seem to make my point with your comments. You indicate yby indicating you don’t know but you are looking into it.

Then it is your failure or refusal to understand the point being made. We are constantly seeking answers, and do not write off things we do not know or understand as goddidit! Theists say there absolutely, positively is a god. The atheists say “where is your evidence? Show us this god.” Well, Lee…where is it? Where is this evidence? And don’t tell me “it’s a feeling” or quote from your mythology book.

I would anticipate the default belief system to be the predominant system. Since atheism is a minority belief I’d tend to see it more as a learned or enlightened sytem.

Lee, First of all, you do not seem to understand that atheism is not a belief system, it is a rejection of beliefs in gods and supernatural beings.

A= without

theism = belief in the existence of a god or gods.

I hope you will now refrain from insisting that atheism is a belief system.

All religions are learned systems programmed into a person’s brain and most allow little room for questioning. When a person follows a religion that involves belief in invisible sky daddies, that is not a belief based on evidence, education and “enlightenment” but on wishful thinking and superstition…in other words, faith.

Similarly, if you are not sure how the universe came to be that too would be an equally reasonable core belief.

I disagree. This would be a result of examination of the evidence. Unlike god botherers, atheists do not simply write how the universe came to be as goddidit. We are continually researching, exploring and examining evidence. We don’t firmly stand by “oh well, we will never know” and leave it at that firmly and forever in an “unshakable faith” while not even bothering to try to find answers to things we do not know or understand. We keep seeking, exploring and learning and are open-minded to new evidence. However, god botherers’ claims of the supernatural come with zero evidence and zero desire to find out that they might just be wrong. For the superstitious, it’s all based on feelings and wishful thinking.

Dogma is fine and every belief system has it, it is actually essential.

NO it is NOT fine, and every religious belief system has it to keep people brainwashed. There is no such thing as “atheist dogma”. I agree that when those in power wish to keep the sheeple in line, whether using religion or any other type of propaganda, dogma is essential to keeping their subjects from going astray…by force if necessary.

Concerning the statement, “Nothing is sacred and everything must be subject to scrutiny” implies atheism is open to all arguments. This again seems inconsistant with the pre-emptive denunciation of beliefs deemed magical, mythical, or superstitious

As we have stated many times, there has been absolutely no evidence to support the any supernatural and magical claims except ancients texts written by superstitious people who understood little about the world and universe. Atheists have been waiting for this “evidence” for centuries. No evidence has been provided for the existence of god thus far, and for most everything that happens an explanation can be found. For things that we don’t quite understand or know yet, does not default to goddidit….it simply means we have not found the answers yet, and may never find out the answers and explanations for many things

We all intensely desire to belive in the truth, belief in anything else is at best a waste of time and at worst detrimental to us.

God botherers are not interested in any other truth but what they wish it to be without considering any other possibilities. That would be a threat to the fantasy they wish to cling to.

I would anticipate the default belief system to be the predominant system. Since atheism is a minority belief I’d tend to see it more as a learned or enlightened sytem.

I think your second sentence would be stronger if you stop after stating “There are no core beliefs.” This is because all belief systems are built on a foundation of faith with regard to how things began. Only one of the following can be true: there is an inteligent initiator or the universe exists eternally or without cause. Belief in an eternal or causless univers is a core belief. Similarly, if you are not sure how the universe came to be that too would be an equally reasonable core belief.

About dogma, stating you have no dogma while stating you accept no myth, magic, or superstion is not consistant. Dogma is fine and every belief system has it, it is actually essential. Without dogma one can only say “I think this” or “I think that.” To say “I believe” is to be dogmatic. Your answer is very positive and you sound sure of yourself, don’t be intimidated away from being dogmatic.

Concerning the statement, “Nothing is sacred and everything must be subject to scrutiny” implies atheism is open to all arguments. This again seems inconsistant with the pre-emptive denunciation of beliefs deemed magical, mythical, or superstitious. This is just more reason to cut the second sentence of the first paragraph short.

Lastly, I would expand the very last point to read, “prove its value to the truth.” We all intensely desire to belive in the truth, belief in anything else is at best a waste of time and at worst detrimental to us.

I appreciate you taking time to help explain your beliefs.

What rational thinkers and skeptics have in common (which is a bit more restrictive than merely atheists) is that we require you (and ourselves) to explain and justify your statements and your moral codes. X is good because my Holy Book says so is not a valid argument. We also require statements about history and science to be back up by evidence.
Nothing is sacred and everything must be subject to scrutiny and prove its value.

Is that a more satisfactory answer?

Your response has a lot of opinion and emotion but still no foundation to your belief unless your reference to “unbelief” is your belief. This seems contradictory and very short sighted so I hope there is something more factual and concrete to this view.

Nope! That’s it: unbelief! It’s a very simple thing to do. Refuse to believe in fairy tales and sky daddies and urban legends and miracles and heaven/hell afterlife! Give all that up and you’ll be an atheist, too! The only thing you’ll need to keep is that old golden-rule thing; it’s about the only thing that keeps us from creating mayhem. And it really is too bad it predates jeebus and actually comes much older religions, particularly ancient India and China…

Oh, and by the way, you’ll save a ton of money if you become an atheist. You won’t be enriching pastors and building mega-churches. And you get to help out anyone you want. Personally, if they don’t go to prison, I’d like to see Falwell, Dobson and Robertson living in a three-bedroom ranch house, with one Honda in the garage…