I’m back! Did ya’ll miss me?
After a week in Virginia, I feel like I need to be “sanitized” and to go through some kind of quarantine process even though I took regular showers while there. Don’t get me wrong…Virginia is a beautiful state, full of magnolia trees which fill the air with a perfumy scent that makes me wish I could have one or two of them right in my own backyard. The surroundings are green and lush with flowers everywhere and colorful songbirds flying all around. Settlers who arrived from the Old World in the midst of springtime must have initially thought they had found paradise. But I wonder what the founding fathers, who fought so hard to establish and uphold our freedoms and the separation of church and state would think about their grand state of Virginia turning into the “fundie Vatican” and headquarters of some of the most intolerant religious fundamentalists on Earth.
My sympathies go out to all of you atheists and secular humanists who must live in these areas surrounded by the self-righteous horde. Around the D.C. area, Virginia didn’t seem much different than Chicagoland, but as we drove farther into Virginia, I began to feel like I was back in Little Rock, Arkansas once again . . . only back in the mid 70s, I was still a Xian so was easier to deal with fundies, though I did still feel like an outsider because I was not considered to be a “True Xian”. As we were driving down the interstate, every so many miles we would come upon these sets of three crosses on a hillside with the center one painted a yellow-gold, the two on either side were white. We also saw a lot of these going through West Virginia (West Virginia needs a whole post of it’s own. It’s a whole other world.)
We stopped at Mt. Vernon first, which is a beautiful mansion and plantation nestled on the hills overlooking the Potomac River. George Washington was a man of many interests and abilities, and he valued knowledge and reason. Not many religious references were to be found amongst the many, many artifacts which remain from the Washington family, except for a family Bible (which belonged to his wife Martha from her first marriage), and a few references in writings by Washington about “Divine Providence”, but nothing about Jesus or Christianity.
As noted by Franklin Steiner in “The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents” (1936), Washington commented on sermons only twice. In his writings, he never referred to “Jesus Christ.” He attended church rarely, and did not take communion - though Martha did, requiring the family carriage to return back to the church to get her later.
Washington was, at most, a deist, however fundies are determined to rewrite Washington’s beliefs and his stance on religion. In the museum that is on the grounds of Mt Vernon, there is a mini-sanctuary with pews to throw in a bit of a religious fiction to the whole “educational” experience, trying to make Washington seem like he was a Christian man when he was not. As his writings show evidence of, and as I said before . . . at most, he was a deist. [George Washington and Religion] The experience at the end of the tour was also quite irritating. At the entrance to Washington’s tomb there is a live prayer reading every twenty minutes, a prayer that was delivered by a Rev. Thomas Davis, Rector of Christ Church at his entombment. When the guide called everyone to the area in front of the tomb for the prayer, the sheeple dressed in their “John 3:16” and “Jesus Loves Me” t-shirts all herded in a huddle with eyes closed and faces squinched as if constipated as the guide read the prayer. Some of us kept walking around irreverantly taking pictures and ignoring the whole oogie boogie recitation. After it was over, I scooted in the out gate and took my photos of the tomb and sarcophagus.
Monticello was similar in the way the preservationists try to highlight Jefferson’s brief references to God, however I was glad to see that they did place emphasis on Jefferson’s adament stance that knowledge was the key to success and happiness. While Washington kept his beliefs concerning religion private, Jefferson was more outspoken about where he stood, and therefore a bit more difficult to make shit up about his beliefs. However, Jefferson’s true beliefs were downplayed, while anything remotely “godly” he might have said was taken out of context, highlighted and prominently displayed. This following video contains quotes by Jefferson that SHOULD have been displayed, but weren’t.
Gift shops at the Williamsburg tourist trap information center were playing a steady stream of religious music . . . “and he walks with me, and he talks with me, and he tells me I am his own” . . .and in most shops and restaurants we stopped at, church music permeated these places.
During this trip, I came to realize how fine the line is drawn between church and state in the south, and in the same way they do their Bible, fundamentalist Christians choose to interpret and rewrite history to their own liking in order to force their beliefs upon the rest of us.
Good video in response by Dr. Michael Newdow on separation of church and state:
Going back to our hotel room one evening, there was a woman who scared me. She was standing at the railing of the balcony where our second floor room was located, and she was telling another woman how the “power of the Lawd shot down through her arms” and how she could “feel the heat and tingling as the power of the Lawd” went through her and “traveled out of her fingertips” and into the back of her little dog and healed it! I told my husband to hurry up and get inside our room and barricade the door!

I honestly don’t know what fundies hope to accomplish. Even if the Founding Fathers WERE Christians, so what? Does it suddenly invalidate the FIRST FUCKING SENTENCE of the First Amendment? Does it suddenly mean that the wall of separation is suddenly moved to be between xianity and the rest of us?
Seriously, if this was a xian nation, there would not be a separation of church and state. In fact, it would have to be illegal for there to be other religions, as per the first commandment.
Using that argument is a great way to trap a xian into either admitting their an oppressive Nazi or that their gawd was wrong/his rules don’t have to be followed.
My parents and little brother went to Virginia a few years ago. I was going to go, but instead a friend of mine and myself went to Dayton Ohio to go to a Ring of Honor wrestling show. Honestly, I think I enjoyed the wrestling show more than I would’ve the east coast.
AUM - Virginia would not have been my first choice for vacation…though I have always wanted to see Mt Vernon and Monticello. The main reason we went to Virginia is because our daughter now plays with the Richmond Symphony and we went to visit her and see a concert. She is zooming out for an audition in San Fran soon and that would give us a reason to go west instead of east if she wins that spot (though we have to go through Mormonland to get there unless we fly).
I am with you about the east coast. For the six years she has been going to school in Philadelphia and then New Haven, our vacation trips have been geared out east, however not so bad when she was farther north (except for driving through NYC–eeeeghads!) I do like to visit Atlantic City and Brigantine Island.
We will be returning to Richmond to visit our daughter while she is there, so we will have to go back. Virginia Beach was nice.
Interesting, Star; my only experience with Virginia was when I went to a party at a friend’s house in Arlington back in my salad days as an undergrad in Maryland. It was a fun party (Halloween, and my friend went all out, even setting tubs of dry ice around the place so we walked and danced in mist!), but I didn’t get to know Virginny any.
How irritating are those prayers at Mt. Vernon (rhetorical question)? And what the deuce are they praying for, if they’re desperately trying to convince themselves and visitors that Washington was a True Xian ™ despite evidence to the con-
Oh.
What I really want to know Star, is did you get some $2 dollar bills when you were at Monticello?
My wife and I visited there in 1998, a year before we got married. I remember when they gave me change for a $20, I got a $2 Jefferson bill among the bills they gave me.
I have been to Virginia a number of times and it is one of my favorite states to visit. I was there with my family in 82 and visited Mount Vernon, Arlington Cemetary and Lee’s house; another year we visited Jamestown, Colonial Williamsburg and that amusement park, the name of which escapes me at the moment. In 96 or 97 I went on a Civil War battlefield tour of the Wilderness, Spotsylvania and Petersburg sites. The remains of the crater is still there at the Petersburg site.
Did you spend any time in Southwest Virginia? That’s the area we just moved to (’just’ as in, we’re still unpacking). If you think eastern Virginia is moderately attractive, the mountains are drop dead gorgeous. Here is the view looking out from the end of my driveway, taken in the mist after an afternoon thunderstorm. It’s a beautiful area. True, not many atheists — but one more now anyway!
The comment on Mormonland made me chuckle. My fatherinlaw lives part time in St George, which is in southern UT near Zion NP and not so far to drive to Bryce Canyon NP and Cedar Breaks. St George is a little less Mormon than a lot of UT as it draws lots of outdoor enthusiasts from around the country. But still. Drinking coffee there feels like a subversive act. Heck I am just glad I can find a coffee shop there. Anyway, in a lot of these Mormon-founded towns, the temple and its square is THE center of town - the street designations take their geographic ref point from the town’s temple.
OH, it is such a joy to though to get the heck outta UT and hit the wonderful heathen state of NV, with all the easily available alcohol, coffee and gambling.
“and he walks with me, and he talks with me, and he tells me I am his own”
Mmhmm… you know, you can get restraining orders against those pesky stalkers now.
If you ever do come through Mormonland, drop me a line, I could show you some of the more heathen type places, but the temple grounds are actually very pretty in summer they have gorgeous gardens, and at xmas time they light the whole place up. Oh and you could go there and watch their “programs” then walk out laughing like I have and say “who believes that shit”, and get thrown out.
The first eighteen years of my life that I spent in America we spent in Virginia and Maryland. Other time was spent in Ethiopia, Germany, and Okinawa. My mother still lives there, so we have contact with the places all the time.
I actually met my first fellow atheists there. The man I trained, rode, and showed horses for was an atheist. A Malungian couple who I used to stay with when we showed and when I drag raced down in Bristol were also atheist. In that time and place atheism was definitly tough to confess to.
There are cultural things which no matter how absurd seem to be an accepted norm. It doesn’t matter if facts contradict them, these are TRUTHS. Places other than America or the American south have them, too.
You must remember that the American South (white and black) was a heirarchical construct almost like England at the time and they fought like hell to keep it that way. So, a sort of god on the top and a descending social order according to family name, status, wealth and race was the way it was. If there was no god, ANYTHING could happen and you could lose EVERYTHING no matter who or where you were in this order. This is a rough explanation, but I heard it many times in my younger days.
Most people have accepted this god/religion thing as necessary, and for some reason think that a theocracy is the way to go. No questions, no gray areas. Just like Calvin’s Geneva or Savanarola’s Florence. None of us at this site would do well in those places, I think.
There are many big changes from my younger days in that area. It used to be that in the Washington area you saw faces which were black or lilly white. Now there are Hispanics and Asians in great abundance.
Hi Stardust, & welcome back.
Actually, there were only 3 known deists - Paine, Franklin, Jefferson. My impression of Washington is that he was somewhat blasé about the whole religion thing (even though he declared Thanksgiving as a religious holiday, & referenced it in his speeches). I read somewhere, that he attended a communicant church for a while, but when criticized for not taking communion, he simply stopped going.
She was probably wheeled out the next day on a gurney, having suffered from a stroke.
Did you spend any time in Southwest Virginia?
David W - As a child I traveled with my parents to the Great Smoky Mountains every single year, oftetimes twice a year. My grandparents and much of my father’s family lived (and still live) in the mountains of North Carolina. Every year we went up on the Blue Ridge Parkway for a picnic. We spent a lot of time in N.C., S.C. and the Virginias. It is gorgeous in the mountains. The view from your driveway is very similar to the view from my grandparent’s backyard. They owned a farm and lots of acerage for many years and then moved to a smaller house with only 12 acres when they got too old to operate such a huge farm.
I didn’t add this to my post for fear of making it too long, but the Wendy’s we stopped at in West Virginia was spooky. We were driving back on Sunday, and around 12:30 decided to find a place to get some lunch. We turned off the expressway and into this pretty good-sized town that seemed to have a lot of restaurants. We chose Wendy’s because it’s fast and the food is ok. The parking lot, as all the other parking lots of nearby restaurants were jammed. We found a place to put our van way back by the dumpsters. As we walked in we saw lots of other people in their Sunday-go-to-meetin’ clothes all strolling across the parking lot towards the entrance. When we stepped inside it was like walking into a chapter of a Stephen King novel, or a scene from Stepford Wives. I have never seen a Wendy’s so crowded that there was not an open seat in the place, people crammed in the cow line to place their orders, and people waiting in another line to get in the order line…and all dressed in their Sunday finest. Men in short sleeved cotton dress shirts and ties, women in flowery dresses and skirts. Here we were standing there, so obviously “outsiders” in our jeans and Reeboks. I guess going out to eat is the thing to do and Wendy’s is some mighty fine dining for many of these people! We take so much for granted up North.
We backed slowly out of the place, got back in the car and headed up the road to a redneck roadside Subway whose sandwich makers were “slower than molasses in January.”
I grew up in Southwest Virginia. A little dot on the map called Pennington Gap. I got to actually see a church service where they handled fire (similar to taking up the “serpent”, but legal). I wasn’t impressed. Even though I was about 10-12 y/o, I could still see how they did it. They kept moving the oil lamp around to fast for it to warm the skin enough to burn, and they were sweating profusely.
Anyway, if you go for the natural sights, there’s quite a bit to see in the Appalachian Mountains. I spent twenty-three years there, and despite the fundamentalist predominance, I still grew up to be an atheist.
-Berlzebub
If you ever do come through Mormonland, drop me a line, I could show you some of the more heathen type places,
Poodles Rule (cute name), We were out in Utah a couple of times on our adventures out west (we have visited about 46 states…still have not visited Alaska Hawaii, Mississippi and Alabama — no desire to see the latter two I mention.) We didn’t go near Salt Lake City. Where we did travel through in Utah was some of the most desolate and beautiful land I have ever seen. We also went to Bryce Canyon and Arches and Zion National Park. Absolutely some of the most breathtaking scenery I have ever experienced.
Stardust:
Poodles Rule (cute name) Thanks! I decided to change it, the whole torrid story is on the Atheist Rants blog.
Southern Utah (canyonland) is absolutely beautiful. Goblin valley is very cool and one of my favorites. AND it is nice and close to Vegas baby!
If you ever do head north you really should think about checking out temple square, if nothing else for the comic relief. Also, the mountains up here are gorgeous.
I too hope to get to Alaska and Hawaii sometime.
Yes…Welcome back, dear Stardust!
[What!…cue the old “Welcome Back, Kotter” theme?]
Those, revisionist Fundie, liars are really busy trying to insure that the brainwashed remain brainwashed.
After all the heavy duty Memorial day weekend religious reminders, and after finally getting around to reading that marvelous: “An Atheist’s Manefesto”, it became overly apparent to me why the religionists are, somewhat, scared shit; albeit unconciously. What do I mean?…Just imagine, if a huge, overwhelming mass of people “woke up” to the realization that thousands of years of man-made bullshit was just that…bullshit.
The societal ramifications…and Capitalistic ones, of course…would be astounding.
“Oh, the humanity!”…and…”Oh, the property!”…and…”Oh, the JOBS!”…as in…
“What’s going to happen to me (us)?”
After all, the more IGNORANT the masses are, the more they can be manipulated, and sold all kinds of bullshit products, agendas…yeah…like WARS…yada, yada. Indeed, what would all the fuckhead CLERICS of ALL the religions do, if the human race finally woke up to the “All-Time Great Scam”…sell shoes and vacuum cleaners?
It brings home, to me, the realization that we atheists have to continue losing our shyness about our ‘DIS-belief’.
Yeah, Audrey…
“and he walks with me, and he talks with me, and he tells me I am his own”…
and…erm…”He sees you when you’re sleeping…he knows when you’re awake…he…”
Oh…that’s Santa Clause…
Wait!…same trick?…”He” REALLY is a creepy dude!
And, be sure not to let your leg fall over the edge of your bed at night! He’s also the Boogey man…and VERY horny?
My personal apology…like Eve brought up (say what?)…for MY “mea culpa” overuse of exclamation points!!!…??? Or is it “MAXIMA culpa”? An I truly sorry?
Coitenly not.(!)
Meanwhile; thanks to all for sharing…
and what an end of the driveway shot, David W! Ummm…Have you seen “Bigfoot” yet?
Religious fundamentalists of all kinds freak me out.
RE the lady telling how gawd helped her to heal her dog.
I wonder sometimes if this is just people wanting to be seen as special and powerful by whatever means possible. It certainly sounds like an act of self delusion to me. There seems to be no way to ameleorate this type of superstitious behaviour and belief as these people are impervious to thinking rationally about it.
Has anyone else noticed the dissonance (cognitive and otherwise) that the fundies seem to be plagued with? There’s an almost bi polar thing with this Jesus construct of theirs? One minute he’s almighty, capable of anything, coming with wrath to throw people like us into torment for eternity! Bwahahahah! The next he’s warm, fuzzy, forgiving, loving, and in fact they think he’s kind of a pussy. He’s so fragile they need to protect him, be the strength that he so obviously lacks, and damned if they aren’t just a bit worried he might be such a wuss as to grant US salvation out of mercy! And they want to be there and hold him to his word (they see it as such) that only the people who know the sacred movements, show the right signs are allowed into the place.
ChuchA, what would the “clerics” do if religion went away? Well, most of them have day jobs already! I was shocked (Shocked!) to discover my childhood pastor worked in an auto factory! And the man who married John and I was…Bruce the Boxboy at Buttrey’s! (My girlfriend had a friend who stocked the dairy case at a large supermarket, and who also was an “ordained minister without a church…yet”; sort of early Ted Haggard, I suppose).
I was born in Waynesboro VA, where the Skyline Drive becomes the Blue Ridge Parkway. I spent many summer vacations there, and in southern KY; my father was born in WV, my mother in KY.
Most of the most annoying fundie relatives were in KY. But I really was lucky, in that the majority were churchgoers but skipped it when we were there (in KY, VA and WV! I wonder if they did that out of courtesy for my parents, who were probably unacknowledged atheists…
I have been lurking around this site for 6-8 months now, and I feel it is finally time for me to post.
Fundie strongholds abound in my neck of the woods, as I reside in good-ole ‘Bama. (I know, I know) Although I am and army brat, I grew up mostly in Georgia, so I have lived in the deep south for a total of 27 years.
Despite my deep south upbringing, I am still a rabid, outspoken (almost militant) atheist. It’s more fun to be loud, proud, and godless here. People tend to think of you as creature with two heads that eats babies. Anyway, I digress…
Stardust, please don’t disregard Alabama because of the bad press (*cough* Roy Moore *cough**cough*) We have some of the most beautiful natural habitats (if you know where to go), and not everyone who resides here is a fundie fruitcake. Granted, most are, but the diamonds in the rough are that much more satisfying.
I have to say that I get a great deal of enjoyment out of this site!
Welcome katscan, Glad you came out of the shadows to comment. (I fixed that little problem you pointed out in your comment.)
One day perhaps I will get to Alabama. I would like to see the home of Helen Keller and the NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville.
Boy, all this talk of beautiful scenery and great places to visit makes me feel like a road trip - if the damn gas weren’t so expensive. My mom went to school in the Blue Ridge Mountains, and she always talks about how gorgeous they were, and katscan, I would definitely like to go to Alabama.
Sarge and ChuckA, ramen!
I like to think that fundies’ frenetic activities are the result of panic. In the past 500 years Christianity has become progressively more marginalized. Today there is nothing that “goddidit” explains that isn’t explained far more coherently and intelligently by science. Fundies may not admit this. Hell,they probably don’t recognize it. But they are truly desperate people watching their universe crumble.
As much as Jefferson talked about how slavery was wrong, he owned slaves himself till the day he died. My guess is the douchebag acted like a christian when he was around christians and acted like he was critical of it when he was around people critical of christianity.
Its 2007, who gives a fuck what the “founding fathers” said or did.
Yes, Jimmy, it’s 2007 and a lot of people don’t give a damn. Most notably the people who are spending twent dollars of ours to make three for themselves, insisting on military action that they demand be fought to the last drop of someone elses blood, are reopenning the doors to peonage. They’re doing the torture and “disappearing” thing on an out of town trial basis, but it probably won’t be long until it comes to a cop-shop near you. Their enemies are everywhere. Like the Geneva Conventions, the constitution is “quaint” and “outmoded”. The church and religions are going to be just another arm of government, no wall between them A good tool is a good tool. Our rather notional citizenship and its increasingly nebulous benefits is also undergoing the same “it’s 2007…” scrutiny.
A few weeks ago my wife and I flew to Nevada to visit one of our sons, and I didn’t really enjoy the experience of travel. We left Dulles, got to our layover, and I was paged. Went to the desk and a couple of airport security types were there, and I was directed to go with them to one of the screening areas. My wife was ORDERED to go to her seat and stay there. I was urged along, and seated. One of the men asked me why I didn’t ask what it was all about. I answered with a question: would he have told me? He was shocked. Of course not!But ‘civilians’ shouldn’t know such things. A very polite woman then appeared and told me that I had been ‘profiled’ and they had ‘concerns’. I was ‘invited’ to empty my pockets and these ‘concerns’ were addressed. In the box were a couple of items that bothered them, had been reported. My French horn nouthpiece and adapter. What were the. I told them. Why did I have them? I wouldn’t be able to play for two weeks and buzzing the mouthpiece helped maintain the lip. If I found a horn to play that wasn’t a French horn I’d use the adapter. A full minutes pause. Why did I not use a driver’s license as ID? Why my retired military ID? I don’t have one. Why not? I have a seizure disorder, it’s not controlled, I don’t drive. I proffered my VA card and medic alert bracelet. I was permitted to go on my way after another three minutes of silent cosideration. No difficulties at all on the rest of the trip. I was told that ‘civilians’ usually acted differently than I did.
Oh, it wasn’t Sidney Greenstreet or von Stroeheim wearing fedoras and leather overcoats, backed by big, sullen, bucket headed goons demanding, “Papers! Papers!” but it still had its moments. I found out that “Please come with us, sir” can be made to sound like “Get your ass out that seat or we’ll kick it for you”, and ‘civilian’ and ’sir’ can be used like ‘nigger’ and ‘turd’. Back when I lived in what passed as a tolerable republic you could walk right out to the plane and look it over. The crews would even invite you aboard and show you things.
It is true that if you read Finley Peter Dunn’s “Mr. Dooley” papers of a century ago, you’d swear it was written today. Difference is that people back then picked op a blunt object (often literally) and thumped someone who usurped their possesion until it was returned. Today we’re ‘civilised’. We use ‘process’ and roll loaded dice every four years, and when they come up snake eyes for us and a solid eight for the house everytime we make our throw. We wring our hands, say maybe next time, and then roll again with a diminishing bankroll. Yeah, the games crooked, but it’s the only one we’re allowed to play…because the house SAYS so. Doing otherwise would lead to disorder. Can’t have that.
Sorry. Got carried away, soapbox back in the closet.
I was staioned in southeast Alabama for some time, and it’s quite a place. Don’t walk into the kudzu, though. Although I am an atheist to the center of my core, I advise anyone travelling in the south to check out the local papers and see which church is having ‘dinner on the grounds’. Attend and suffer through the service, then report for lunch. You will find that it is worth your time and suffering for just that day.
While we were in Nevada (near Reno) we saw several herds of wild horses. They were kind of disappointing, though. They weren’t trying to drag people away or compell them to go places, neither were they attempting to make or deterr people from certain activities. They just did what all the other horses I dealt with normally did.
Non-Christians, from anything other then the Christian faith also feel like outsiders in VA. Some still get to hear “Christ killer,” others are labelled “terrorists” and still others are thought to be “Satan’s little helper.”
It’s just so fun being from another faith, no faith or the wrong type of Christian in this country.
I had a JW at my door the other day (even though I’m in MA). She wanted to talk, I didn’t, infact I said to her that if you aren’t of the dominate faith in this country you are screwed. She raised her eyebrow and asked if I would at least take a copy of “The Watchtower.”
I did and took it straight to office where it went into the shredded, un read — and it FELT REALLY GOOD!
I can’t seem to suffer them gently any more.
Atheists need to “come out of the confessional”. The more of us stand up and lay it out for all to see, the sooner we can assert ourselves.
Just think how much greater America could be, if the masses weren’t enthralled with fairy tales and apocalyptic visions!
Ironic isn’t it? There is absolutely no proof that jesus, mary, joesph, the apostles, etc. EVER existed, yet millions believe the myth.
Constatine created jesus and the myth about 300AD to quell the many religious groups in-fighting. Jesus was based on a then, 1000 year old myth (Krishna, Horus, Orpheus, Bacchus, Osiris, Dionysus, etc.) about a “savior” of humans, born of a virgin, etc.
Want to become rich and famous? Find just ONE piece of credible evidence that jesus existed. None of the ancient roman historians have one mention of a jewish miricle worker.
So no jesus, no garden of eden, and no devil, no hell, etc. Life just got sweeter.
The Pilgrims were fleeing England to escape the power of Church and State as the Church of England demanded everyone be a member and give money to their church which the Government forced everyone to join. The pilgrims never wanted a Government of Church and State, they feared such a Government and fled to a new world to be out of its reach!!
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Ouch, Sarge - and you a veteran on top of it all…
I do agree with you about the direction in which the country, perhaps even much of the rest of the world, is going. Some say that World War III is being waged right now, and has been for some time - against the middle class.
I think they’re onto something…
Katscan:
You got it wrong about Alerbamer. Jeezus is 2nd bannaner here. Football is first and Bear is our Savior. After all, Bear won 79 national championships Jeezus ain’t won none.
Thanks, Eve. It is the question of orthodoxy, and a monotheistic set will do very well. People who do not have certain political or religious views are people about whom something will eventually have to be done as they probably won’t move with the herd and can’t be counted on to act predictably.
I took a course while I was still in the army which dealt with insurencies and resistance movements. The people most likely to be involved in these were often discribed as “the odd ones”, “strange people” who didn’t follow the conventions of society at large in the first place and tended to chafe at authority’s intrusions. They were considered to be as dangerous once “liberation” was at hand, and many were dealt with by the very liberators whose way they sacrificed a lot to prepare.
Sarge - I trust that you understand that when I say, ” who gives a fuck what the “founding fathers said or did”, I mean that we should do things fair and right because they’re fair and right. I use “It’s 2007″ in a different way than those you referred to above: It’s 2007, so we should act as though our natural resources are dissappearing because they are, It’s 2007 - racism and violence are far too dangerous in a modern world with modern weapons, It’s 2007 and science has come a long way so perhaps we should abondon superstitious beliefs which are seen as “traditional”
Thanks, Jimmy, I guess the context of what I see and hear around me sort of puts me in a rut. I’ll try to do a bit better on reading in the future. And you are quite correct.
I suggest, though, that people actually should read history, not just the Rah Rah Our Team’s The Best version you get in school. As Noam Chomsky says, it’s all there, all available. It’s interesting to read the Aurora ( a newspaper operated by one of Benjamin Franklins’ grandsons, he inherited Franklins presses and used them.) in that it gives a quite different view of the time. One of John Marshal’s grand nephews tried to get him to open up and tell the real story about the “Founding Fathers” but Marshal wouldn’t do it. Said they weren’t what the were percieved to be by the public at that time of the revolution and had taken care to be seen as other than they were afterward. He wouldn’t be the guy who stirred up a hornets nest with the truth. Robert Lincoln recieved his fathers presidential papers and is reported to have been found burning them by a freind. The freind remonstrated with him, used the words, “for the sake of history!” R. Lincoln explained that this was why he was burning them: for the sake of history.
Funny, though. I heard people say recently that the Viet Nam experience was irrelavent to what’s going on now. Who cares what happened back then? I get out my copy of “The War of the Flea” and other items, and it could be forty years ago. Same statements, slogans, happenstance. Read Mr. Dooley and you’d swear it was todays headlines. Immigration, imperial war, crime, poverty.
You are probably a lot more educated than I, and you may have noticed that you can’t really abolish superstion. Traditional. My last job in the army was as an air traffic controller. There is a superstion about the rule of three: three accidents (or other occurances) and then the jinx is broken. I told my father this and he mentioned it to a person he knew, a Marine Colonel who commanded an airwing. He told my father that that was idiotic superstition, aircraft had problems because of human factors or wear, and if HE EVER heard ANYONE in his command saying such supersticious horse shit, they’d find out where the bear shit in the buckwheat. He wouldn’t TOLERATE such nonsense. Then he added, “Still, we all breathe a lot easier after that third one.” I think our wor’s cut out for us on the supersticion thing.
D Boyd:
I hate to say it, but football IS king here, but anything is better than Jeebus. However, to hear the constant droning on about Bear is tedious at best. Bear is not MY personal savior!
//Auburn Grad//War Eagle!!
Stardust, you think you have bad try living here in Virginia for eight years. I hate it here. I wonder if anyone has been in a public place when they are only-atheist there. For instance, I am the only atheist in my school. Everyone that knows that I am an atheist look down on me like I am trash.
The teachers that I have been complete asshole toward me even so I try being reasonable. Christian is another word for asshole.
Myron, I can one up you. I’ve lived in Virginia my entire life. All 22 years of it. Been an atheist since I was 14. Not really publically until college, but that’s that.
Granted, I spent the majority of those years living near DC in a fringe suburb, so I’m a bit removed from it. I went to college in the Hampton Roads area in places where it was easier to hide from the populace, though we have a TON of missionaries that troll the neighborhood where I currently live. Though, I’m getting out to live in the SF Bay Area to go to grad school so I suppose this has a happy ending, haha.
My parents now live near the West Virginia border, but I still haven’t gotten the creepy vibe yet. Everyone is more religious, but not publically so out in the mountains….
I knew Virginia was painfully conservative, but I had never attached “fundie” to its labels in my head. It really shouldn’t surprise me. Especially with the painfully uncomfortable English class in public school where I was informed that atheists are just people who know God exists but for some irrational reason turn their back on him. Thankfully, my teacher changed the subject after that gem escaped Little Miss Redneck’s mouth.
Sigh. I’m not even going to comment on the revisionist history they play down at Mt. Vernon and Colonial Williamsburg. We really should be above that sort of propaganda. =/
Next time, interpret your quotes for us - don’t just post someone else’s words. I deleted your spam-like comment’s content. We’re more interested in what YOU have to say about the late and wisely-unlamented Falwell. It allows us to get a feel for where your atheism is coming from.
However, if you are not a disbeliever (or are masking your xian DNA), I advise your next post be free of dogma and proseletyzing. Or that, too, will be deleted.
We have a hard-and-fast rule here: Thou shall not proselytize. It’s GifS Commandment #2, which you can read under “On Commenting” (in top box, left sidebar). Read and obey. We have no patience with xian drivel - which we’ve all heard before because most of us wasted too many years “in the life”. In fact, we’ve developed a “give no quarter, take no prisoners” policy on fundamentalism’s visitors.
The Moderators
Man, I got one up. My life still a lot more worse. My parents are trying to make me go to a christian college. I want to go to Penn State. I have notice that religion college require less. Look at Liberty University with a SAT score 800 and GPA of 2.0. I have a 3.5 GPA with a 1540 SAT score(this is on the new SAT score with highest score of 2400)but I screw up on the writing the essay. Is it just me or all the religion colleges are for the unthoughtful?