
(Click on the picture for a larger image)
As I’ve mentioned previously, I have a new job, and am in the process of the good old 90 day probationary period. As such, I have to decidedly scale back my usually loud and aggressive personality (not to the point of mumbling to myself, I might add: lately, I’ve been making an effort to balance my ‘militancy’ with diplomacy).
And so, I have an anecdotal tale to tell, which set the gears in my thick Irish skull a-turnin’.
I step out occasionally for a ciggie break, and occasionally I chat with this nice lady (who, incidentally, is a preacher’s daughter).
We began discussing how politicians are inherent untrustworthy, and I pointed out to her that there’s a distinct difference between flip-flopping and a politician changing his/her mind based on evidence. (I cited Bill Simon as an example, as I recall reading that he’d changed his mind on abortion, but cannot find a citation, and a Jon Carroll column that I read some years back, where he made a good argument that a politician can change his/her mind, if there’s reasonable evidence to the contrary. Again, cannot find).
I brought up the recent Republican debate, where three of the runners didn’t ‘believe’ in evolution - and of course, this opened a bit of a can of worms.
She kept emphasizing that it was important that she knew what a politician believed - I pointed out that evolution is the backbone of biology, is a science, etc.
Time for a flummox moment:
I was told that it didn’t matter - it was what the person believed was important. I was also treated to the old ’Where’s the spirituality? Either we came from Adam and Eve, or we just sprang up from animals” canard. I also heard about how scientists can’t agree on any set theory (I very patiently pointed out that there are theistic evolutionists, such as Ken Miller, Francis Collins, etc), but she was having none of it.
I also (quite diplomatically) told her that while these ’scientists’ (I love how no name-dropping is ever involved in these personal discussions, in re: the theist) disagree on the details/approach, they’re in general agreement on the overall picture.
I was told if I wanted to believe that, that was fine. I began to point out that science isn’t about belief, that it was based on facts and evidence, that science was about catalogued observations, at which point some fellow joined in on her side with some utterly vacuous platitudes about believing (which sounds fine and good if you’re an overly tolerant lamb), at which juncture, I bit my tongue and walked away.
I’ll just wait until the 90 days are up to rejoin that conversation, you betcha.
She’s a nice lady. I rather like talking to her. Like myself, she’s a sunny, happy person. Obviously, she’s not completely daft - her job is quite a bit more complex than mine.
On the flip side, I go to lunch with the computer ‘nerds’ - one young fellow (I’m old enough to be his dad - no joke) is also an atheist. We struck up a conversation about thermodynamics and quantum physics, and thus, I’ve been dubbed ‘Doug the Physicist’ (utterly hysterical, as I’ve no college background whatsoever). He stated at one point, that being logical, he can’t accept religion - it’s either logical or not. Not? Gone.
In my roundabout way here, I’m somewhat indulging in what I would’ve liked to say - which is this:
Belief is not enough. It is not an explanation. It is not a shield. It is by no means a badge of honor, whether it is treated as such by the majority or not. It is an eccentricity, and should be treated as such.
You cannot tailor the facts to fit your worldview. Rather, you have to tailor your worldview accordingly.
When a child tells a wild fable, replete with magical creatures and wizardly feats, we laugh, pat said child on the head, and nod in agreement. After all, they’re children: likelihood is, that someday they’ll outgrow these wild extravagancies, or perhaps ply them as a trade, such as a fantasy/sci-fi/horror writer.
But if adults base their decisions on some obscure anachronistic piece of writing, indeed, not only their worldview, but all their decisions - politics, discrimination, if they feel the need to play mathematical games to extract an answer (rather than use their own noggins) or to randomly pick some verse from their wholly bibble, I’d have to say that the whole 10 percent of the brain being used myth may have some merit after all.
The day has passed, humanity’s adolescence is long gone, the time for adulthood is far overdue.
Fantasies are a fine pastime for idle moments, but are unfit for that short time we have allotted to us on this planet. This cloak of flesh is all there is: best to use it wisely, live fully, for reality is a handful enough.
This is the Apostate, signing off.

Good one, KA. I have never been able to fathom faith and belief. In my experience, most people just know that a rock ribbed and headed, dig in your heels refusal to face facts will always see them through, no matter what.
In my military career I’ve been an air traffic controller, marine engineer, and infantryman. These things require an awareness of the reality of situations, and pretending that adverse indicators don’t exist brings tragedy. Yet, I’ve seen pilots take off into weather they shouldn’t, controllers take the word of a pilot when there were indicators that something was wrong to the contrary of what he pilot said. I’ve been told that my concerns about ‘condenseritis’ were nonsense because we were being counted on for something and watched by important people. I saw a man die in 1968 in Viet Nam simply because it was the quickest way out of a very bad situation. The idea that there would be no assistance or relief in our situation was simply too much for him and over the course of several hours he simply stopped living. No illness, no injury. Just a mental, “I gotta get out of this!” followed by a physical, “I’m with you!” I guess.
I’m told, people need an anchor, a base. The idea of referencing yesterday and today to shape tomorrow seems to be too much.
KA, I don’t have a bullying bone in my body, so I’m most comfortable just being condescending to the reality-phobes. While on moderation duties, I give them a mild scolding and literally tell them to brush their teeth and get to bed.
Even if they aren’t physically ten-year-olds, their grasp of reality is stuck there. I find it easier to tolerate their “eccentricity” by imagining them as pre-pubescent and clueless…
Speaking of creationist retards:
You absolutely need to read this new piece in The BEAST; it’s the funniest thing I’ve seen in months. Ian Murphy infiltrates the Creation Museum’s opening day posing as a mentally disabled Christian journalist suffering from “Asperger’s Syndrome by Proxy”, and interviews Ken Ham, the museum’s founder. Hilarious.
I really like this post. Religious people seem to think that believing something somehow makes it true.
15 years ago, when I was 5 years old, I believed pretty strongly in Santa Claus. Even though I believed it, I was wrong. No matter how many Christians refuse to believe in evolution, it doesn’t really matter. Facts can always stand the test of time, but bullshit beliefs cannot.
OT: Well, it’s all a bit inter-related, aint it.
Watching a History Channel “documentary” about revelations and all that crap. They had Ted Haggard as an “expert”. I guess they aren’t up on current events.
HC really has gone downhill.
Sorry, but I think such tactics by a so-called journalist are pretty pathetic. Wasn’t he man enough to confront Ham and his cronies as is?
[2nd try]
Thanks KA; “Veeeeery intereshtink”!
And “heathenish”…
that ‘Retard’ link IS really hilarious. Or, should we say: “Hopelessly Challenged” link?…Certainly an Academy ‘Aweird’ performance?
What friggin’ idiots those Fundies are!
“Rev”…the History Channel has, I think, fallen into a deep (fathomless?) shit cravass…there simply MUST be some ‘Fundie leaning’ (and falling) morons in charge.
To seriously consider the Bible as actual, valid “History”, takes some pretty low IQ [Chimpy’s range?] types, for sure.
In the last few years, HC has looked more and more like a brainwashed religious channel.
What’s next?…regular visits to Ham’s “Garden of Fuckheads” Museum?…interspersed, perhaps, with…
regular replays of the Flintstones?
With apologies, ChuckA, for your probable frustration, when the system took it upon itself to send, not one - but two! of your comments to the Spam folder. To add insult to injury, the system also sent one genuine Spam to the moderation folder…
GifS Mods
Hi Sarge:
Ribbed & headed? Lost me there, sorry.
I’ve heard tell of the ‘giving up the will to live’ syndrome - didn’t know anyone who’d actually witnessed it. Thanks. Weird stuff.
Very nicely phrased.
“Sorry, but I think such tactics by a so-called journalist are pretty pathetic. Wasn’t he man enough to confront Ham and his cronies as is?”
I don’t think they put up that front as a shield to protect themselves, but rather as a way to see how everyone would react, especially since they feel as if the creationists aren’t much smarter than “Dougie” would be. And like they said, it’s common courtesy to not question the way a “special” person acts in public, so even if something went wrong, it’s doubtful that anyone would try to fight against them, or kick them out, or anything.
Revenant:
Armed guards & German shepherds? What, does Ham think that the evil atheist army will blitzkrieg the joint?
I think it was a ballsy move. No way is any real scientist going to be allowed in on an interview in that place. Not after it’s opened, anyways.
‘Teach the controversy’ is their double-standard, remember?
KA, a “rock headed’ person is someone who is simply hard headed, unwilling to listen. My wife and sons tend to look at me with that ‘takes one to know one’ look when I use the term. I confess myself to somewhat fit that discription at times. I first heard the term ‘rock ribbed’ at a viewing of “The Music Man”. It is used to discribe the stolid, stubborn wat of people from the town he descended upon. it fits some people. Unbending, unyeilding. I went to a local production (outstanding one!)just the other night and it just stuck with me.
I never saw another person end up the way that young man did. On the other hand, I’ve seen people live through things that the medics just shook their heads and went through the motions to treat. I have to make a yearly pilgrimage to a VA which deals a lot with plastic surgery, and I can tell you that if you want to lose weight, go there once a week. It can be a real appetite supressant. And yet, most of these people are pretty happy with their lives, get along, and many have an acceptence of what has happened and others reaction. Unfortunatly, many find this is a ‘test’ sent by a diety to try them for which they’ll be awarded later. I don’t agree, but if it helps them cope with chronic pain and other attenant problems, I’m not the guy who’ll say ‘no’. I’ve got too many problems of my own. I hear so many people say, “I couldn’t go on if I didn’t believe…” but I’m the odd man out because to me, life happens.
I just see it as cowardly. Were they really going to get any major revelations by doing what they did? Ham is pretty transparent. Now they’ll be looking more closely than they need to be to any disabled kids.
KA: here’s a suggestion from an ex-smoker. Rather than contend this issue with the nice lady, use the time to enjoy a second cigarette. Or limit your conversations to the weather. She does not comprehend what you are telling her. The portion of her brain that permits consideration of an opposing viewpoint has long ago atrophied. The only thing she understands is that you’re speaking against revealed truth and are probably being manipulated by Satan. It’s a battle you can’t win.
You mean santa isn’t real?
Wow, there goes christmas…
One of my hobbies is flint kmapping (ie, making stone tools) and when my oldest son was about six he found a beautiful arrow head right where we lived. We went home on leave, and we showed a nieghbor who is a professor of anthropology his arrow head. He asked me to come to school with him and demonstrate how to make tools, and be sure to bring my son and his projectile point. I gave my demonstration, and he insisted on introducing my son to his class. He showed the class the arrow head, and reminded his class that this child could give a running discription of what I was doing and why. Then they discussed where his arrow head had come from. They all laughed when he said that the indians came in the night and left it for him to find because he’d been a good boy.
The prof then asked who else brought him things in the night and why, and he gave the six year old answers, Santa, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny.
He observed to them that this six year old was using empirical data which he interpreted as to the world he knew and that made sense. He said that my son would, hopefully, (and he has) change his views as he learned more, andd would discard that which was absurd and simply false. He observed that he knew many in the very institution we stood in who invested a lot in a thesis and refused to change no matter what the data or changes which they should have been aware of. Some were merely doofus, others had too much invested and riding on the status remaining quo. He urged them to follow the example projected. On the way home I told him I thought that was a great thought. He laughed and said if two or three of his students actually took his word he’d be very surprised. He was right as rain.
KA–
What your acquaintance is missing is this: science is about belief. But science aims at a specific subset of beliefs, namely, knowledge. A belief is classified as knowledge when it is true and justified. A person cannot have knowledge when the belief doesn’t correspond to reality– that is error. And without justification, belief is merely opinion.
It is easier to discuss science with fundamentalists when things are made concrete. For example, the belief that the Earth is 6,000 years old is inconsistent with what we know about sea floor spreading, continental drift, Hubble’s Law, cosmic background microwave radiation, radiometric dating, and so forth. In addition, the young earth belief is logically incoherent– Noah obviously didn’t have aquariums for the fresh water fish on the Ark, millions of species including plant life couldn’t survive 2-by-2 in an ecosystem of their own on a boat, and whatever remained could not speed-evolve into the habitats and biological diversity we see today. I once made this case to a group of friendly Mormons that we should believe in evolution, but not speed-evolution. They couldn’t come up with a reply, because I am awesome.
Anyway, what is really troubling to me is not theism per se, which in itself isn’t the evil radicals make it out to be, but the common inability of people to assess evidence. There are people who believe 9/11 was an inside job, humans never walked on the lunar surface, the holocaust never happened — it is quite frightening. This is the result of people thinking relativist mush about truth, though I suspect this is motivated by a fear of not absolutism, but intolerance. We need to teach people be closed-minded again– be a theist if you wish, but realize you can’t change the laws of logic based on your feelings, emotional needs, and self-esteem.
How so? All they do is say god made it happen that way, there is no need for logic for them. You’re not going to change their minds with logic, else they wouldn’t be fundies in the first place.
Sarge - I understand the ‘rock-headed’ reference. The way it was phrased was new to me is all.
Revenant - well, you may see it that way, but likelihood is good that Miller or Dawkins will hardly be invited in for their input.
OV - yeah, that’s pretty much what I’m going to adopt for the nonce.
J.H:
That’s actually very nicely phrased. I usually substitute ‘confidence’ for ‘faith’ or ‘belief’, as most theists start blathering about some allegorical Freudian slip of some sort.
Well, I maintain that we stop giving so much credit to religion, as it’s obviously the people who’ve done so much good & bad, smart & stupid, etc.
Religion as a raison d’etre has a pretty poor track record, though.
That’s part of my point. Why would anyone really care to interview these idiots in the first place? The rest of my point was that pretended to be retarded was passe’ after the age of 10, I would say. Why couldn’t the guy just pose as a xian, and leave the handicapped part out? He didn’t really want an interview, he just wanted to ridicule. And we are doing that just fine without making life worse for handicapped folks.
Good point Rev…but, be careful…don’t call them “handicapped” folks…
I think ‘they’ prefer…erm…physically “challenged”…?
You know…Gord selectively “challenges” us poor humans…but then, we’re all so equal, you know. Duh?
So…like…we atheists are “cosmologically challenged”?
[Or, perhaps, here on GifS…”Dueling, challenged atheists”?]
Lol ChuckA.
I’d say the religious are cosmologically challenged (especially the “logical” part). They refuse to look outside their fictitious cosmology and see what’s really out there.
The point is obvious to me: to pretend to be Christians and enter the museum does nothing. After all, they could probably have admitted to being atheists and still gotten in. The point is that only a mentally disabled person could believe in creationism. And by adopting a wildly inaccurate and fictional diagnosis like “Asperger’s by proxy,” the author was challenging Ham and his people to display any kind of scrutinizing intellect and determine him to be a cheap fraud.
The message is simple: creationists are retards. If it’s a terrible offense to thereby imply that the mentally disabled are not generally very smart, well, I don’t how we can pride ourselves on our intellectual honesty and simultaneously object to simple objective truth.
We know creationists are retarded. Many Christians do not want to see the truth for several reasons. One: Majority rules, so thinking out the box makes you “Satan followers” 2: They cannot deal with fact that they wasted their lives on so they “tap dance” around. 3: They think it makes them happy even so the main reason why Christianity still exists because it plays with the power of guilt.
Did I kill this debate? Man, this always happen! I just want to talk to people that think but they are all running away. Fudge.
Apparently I was the only one that felt it was tasteless and cowardly. So not much of a debate. Move along.
Just a christian dropping by.
How nice for us
On the creation subject I must offer an opinion.
This may sound like just the usual intelligent design stance,
really? Why would we think that?
but hear me out.
I am employed as an electrician for a factory, which means that I repair machinery. Any person who would say that one of the machines(even the simplest)just came into being without design would be labled as an idiot or retard. Yet any of the living things on this planet make the most complex of machines seem to be simple. In my job to find a pump that would last for more than a few years would be a great thing, yet the human heart even with abuse lasts eighty years. A part that acts as a joint is lucky to last a couple years and only does so if the engineering is perfect, yet the elbows and knees last a lifetime. The longer that a machine works without maintenance proves the intelligence of the designer, but even the best designed machines that I work on need a good supply of spare parts and people who know the machine well to keep them working properly. And yet, the human body goes for years without a checkup but this is credited to the brilliance of chance.
So what is the difference between the machines that I work on and the machines that are called life on this planet? Would you say that the machines that I work on have a specific purpose but life does not? As someone who needs a logical process to troubleshoot machinery, I understand that my knowing the machine’s purpose and design will greatly improve my chances of finding what is wrong with it. But if I don’t understand a machines purpose and design, it doesn’t mean that it has no purpose besides just sitting there. So how would you prove to someone such as myself that there is no God and all things that are complex are a product of chance.
(Yes, humans are pretty ingenious, and also imaginative especially with the way they have created so many gods for themselves to explain what they do not know or understand.) It is not up to us atheists to prove there is no god, it is up to you who is making the claim to prove their IS a god. We cannot prove that something does not exist. But you are saying something does, and your example is using human creations to explain why you think an imaginary designer created humans. Talking of “spare parts”, if the human body has parts that wear out, your imaginary designer is not a very good one, and this imaginary designer has not even the “intelligence” to make new spare replacement parts for his faulty originals. Humans “harvest” more parts from other dead or alive humans, or animals, or medical professionals and engineers create mechanical parts for replacement. Your “intelligent designer” does nothing. It’s why xians go to human doctors instead of praying and trusting their god to heal them.
Now, how about providing some concrete evidence for this “intelligent designer” you are here to try to convince us exists? ~ Moderators
So in order for you to answer my arguements for the existence of a God I have to first prove that God exists?
Yes.
How is that for logic? Do we have time to get into just how incredibly complex that we are?
It is quite logical. You are making a claim…you must prove it. If someone asked a scientist to prove that air exists, he could provide the scientific data required to back up his claims. No evidence has ever been found for the existence of a deity. It is all about faith…and what a person chooses to imagine for himself or herself.
That we are complex does not prove the existence of a god. It just means that you do not understand why we are so complex and that you are too lazy to do the research and want instant answers. So you make answers up for yourself according to what some dumbass, undereducated pastor tells you.
So if you will not consider the evidence for His being because you cannot see Him, then how are you different from a person who does not believe that a machine was created because I cannot show them the creator?
You cannot see Santa Claus, or the Pink Unicorn, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Prove they do not exist. My ex-sister-in-law believes garden gnomes exist. Prove that garden gnomes exist. It would be up to her to prove the existence of these little fellows, not up to you to prove they do not exist. They exist in her mind and are very real to her.
As for the machine, I can go find a maker of any machine and watch one be made. Your argument is stupid.
To answer your spare parts answer I believe as a Christian that the original man before sin did not wear out.
You believe….there you go again. Making shit up as you go along. You want to believe it, but have zero evidence. Then your god created sin and evil choice…it didn’t come from nowhere according to your mythology because your god made everything in the universe. He is such a game player, like all the gods humans have invented.
But you did not answer for the incredible engineering of the life forms on earth.
Because we do not know everything, doesn’t mean we should resort to making it up as we go along. Most people are just too lazy to research for themselves, to ask questions. It is much easier to believe the fantasy. There is a Simpson cartoon where Lisa comes in and asks her mother to choose between science and faith. Homer is blissfully in la-la land outside jumping on a trampoline. Marge looks at her daughter and then looks at her silly husband, and Lisa says “you have to choose”…and Marge goes out and jumps on the trampoline with Homer. That is what you and xians are doing. Choosing the blissful state of jumping on a trampoline and ignoring reality.
You only said because man can steal parts off of other men that this somehow proves something. You didn’t mention that the immune system that keeps us alive rejects those parts and that we give ourselves drugs that shut the immune system down(sort of like giving yourself AIDS). And the artificial parts that we create are just reverse engineered parts that are inferior to the OEM parts. So your answer, if you want to call it that did not answer anything.
I was illustrating that your god does not help you. At least humans are attempting to do something. Many, many lives are saved from organ transplants. I have known these people personally. Human intervention helps, trusting god does absolutely squat. Nothing.
And some of us Christians do get healed, just ask them how the parts of God compare to the parts of man.
Then why don’t you believers ALL trust your god if that was true? Why clog up doctor’s offices and take up space and drive insurance costs upwards? Go to your god and let him take care of you? Most of the time when people do this, they die. Stephen Hawking has lived with an illness that should have killed him decades ago. He has been an agnostic his whole life. He has not gone to faith healers, he is alive. My brother in law had the same illness at and was diagnosed at age 30, and was a strong believer and he is dead. It’s just life. Shit happens that we cannot explain or control.
So if you have the time we can discuss the “simple cells” that were the first to come out of nothing, or the conditions that need to exist for life to be, or the fact that even without man’s existence more species are dying every year then new species that come into being through evolution. Can you name one species that we have seen come into being in your lifetime?
Many, new species are found every day. These things are in the news every day…a new fish, or bird species, etc. Here’s a link for you.
New Species News
One other thing, I recall reading a National Geographic article recently where they said that geneticists have discovered that all modern men have a single common ancestor whom they have nicknamed “Adam”. Ha, I wonder were I heard that one before?
The name “Adam” was probably in jest. Scientists have a funny sense of humor.
(*yawn*) The Mods have caught another xian suckerfish in the snare. And he’s sucking for air as we speak. How predictably inane…
On another thread, this was posted:
Jay “too-stupid-to-know-how-stupid-jay-really-is” thinks he has answers. His critical thinking skills were honed on the illogical bauble. He just can’t help it, can he?
Perhaps he needs to go to a good university - he can get a brain transplant or have his god-seed removed. Whatever…
The question really was what species evolve into being every day, not what species are found? Show me a species that has evolved into being.
Have you ever taken a Biology course? You obviously do not understand evolution. Everything has evolved all the time, it does not happen overnight, or even in a day, or a year.
But you still haven’t even begun to answer how something so complicated came into being out of nothing.
You still have not provided evidence for the existence of your god. Just saying “god did it” because you do not understand is not an answer. As for humans, we formed and evolved from the same elements as everything in the universe…starstuff.
All you do is insult me for following the logical answer.
There’s that xian persecution complex kicking in again. Calling a spade a spade is not insulting. If you find truth to be insulting, it’s your problem, not mine.
My logical explination that a machine has a creator is not something that I need to watch being created to understand.
But the creators of machines (humans) actually exist. No one waves a magic wand or farts magic dust and makes a machine appear.
But the very memory system that allows you to argue(sometimes convincingly) against the existence of God, is an amazing system, that if slightly damaged would reduce you to a person who wouldn’t remember how to tie his shoelace.
And your sky daddy would never appear to prevent it.
When I program a PLC at my workplace the most simple program can be thrown into fault by a lack of understanding the binary number system, but our DNA is far beyond this. The greater the programing ability shows that the designer is more intelligent. And I haven’t even begun to get into how our solar system’s physics are fine tuned to allow any life to exist on this planet. Fred Hoyle who is by no means Christian of theist has said “a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.” So just wondering, how do explain how everything seems to have been fine tuned?
Just because I cannot explain it doesn’t mean that I am going to take the lazy way out and say “goddidit”. I would have to study and try to understand and learn about physics, and much more than I know or understand about astronomy.
Are you going to give me the infinite number of universes theory, even though we have only a case study of one? That would be sort of like faith, right?
Uh, no…that would be a theory. Theory based on a collection of evidence. Faith is believing in something despite lack of evidence.
You act as though I am the only one who has faith, but let’s hear your theories on the beginning of life. Let’s hear them so that we can examine if you are really scientific or if you just hate Christians.
There are many theories about the origins of life. Research and exploration is ongoing. However, those who believe in the existence of god do so and are not concerned about the lack of evidence. You need the crutch for whatever reason, and by convincing others to believe what you do helps to reinforce your fantasy for you. When those of us disagree and do not accept your fantasy, then your persecution complex kicks in and you say we hate you. We don’t hate you, but we do think you are insecure, and feel vulnerable and have this great need to believe in something greater than yourself. Some of us do not need that. I think most people are doubters…agnostic though they go through the motions of religion. They want to believe, but they trust in science and human goodness and brainpower much more than their imaginary friend.
Insult to Naomi removed. Naomi is one of our moderators.
Also, you cannot come here and tell us what to write or not write on OUR site.
One more thing, maybe God has a good sense of humor too.
You can make your god any way you want him/her/it to be.
Jay,
The evidence for your god is only inside your own brain. Everyone has their own ideas of god according to their own imagination and however they want this god to be according to his or her own morals, values, preconceptions and desires.
Jay
If your fucked up god has a sense of humor? Why is it that so many are dying in his name and he has made killing a sin?
Fuck Your sissy ass swish of a God
Jay, a response to your last two comments in the queue will be coming soon.
Jay:
Sure. Ligers & Tiglons. Look around. Even you are evolving.
You know that’s not evolution, right?
When you provide a ‘logical’ answer, I’ll be all ears.
Fine.
Provide me 1 instance in nature where the creator isn’t beholden to the same laws as the ‘created’.
Which is a better argument for dystheism than you think.
Ah, the argument from ‘fine tuning’. A well-worn canard.
I program computers too. Most of us (should) do a thing called ‘error trapping’ & debugging the program.
Hoyle was a panspermiast.
We can’t live, let alone thrive, in 99% of the universe. Bit of a waste of real estate, ain’t it?
I for 1 am not a proponent. So that landed on nothing.
The data isn’t fully in as of yet.
Cairns-Smith stipulates that clay has the beginnings of life (based on crystals, which DO design themselves), Hoyle was a panspermiast (directed exogenesis: intriguing how you retrofitted that to your own taste).
Just because we don’t have all the answers yet, doesn’t mean we have to invoke the ‘god of the gaps’.
There’s perfectly rational explanations for all of it. Sans a divine hand.
Ain’t no gawd. Get used to it.
Oh, hey:
2 words:
Compounded simplicity.
Compounded simplicity, oh really. The most simple living cell, if every chemical bond in it were broken,what do you think the odds for it to reassemble under the most ideal natural conditions? Molecular biophysicist Harold Morowitz calculated the chances. 1 in 10 to the 100,000,000,000th power. Even if all the matter in the universe were converted into the building blocks of life, and chance tried to reassemble them once every microsecond for 10 billion years the chances would only be improved to 10 to the 99,999,999,916th. If we are compounded simplicity then how much greater does your god Chance have to be to explain us.
Has anyone heard of the “church of Chance”? Anyone here belong to that one?
Truly the word of God says that the fool says in his heart there is no God.
Your quote from your mythology book means nothing to us. If people of other faiths quote their religious texts to you, would it convince you to change religions?
This number is so large that none of us can comprehend it,
Like we said before, just because you can’t “comprehend” something doesn’t mean you make up imaginary answers.
so unless you can pull out a beginning of the universe story that would give you infinite time to work with it seems as though you are athiest more on belief than on the facts.
Good one, Mod! Earth, solar system and universe won’t last forever…and the god-concept won’t survive the 21st century!
Especially since god has such lackwitted fucktards as jay defending the indefensible! Why would they take something so beautiful, complex and repeatedly tested (with consistent results) and turn it into a child’s lie?
The answer to my question is: Because the truth will kill the god-concept; and they have too much riding on god-viability. They belong to a cult-of-personality. And each day, they draw closer to the edge of the precipice. On their ledge, they can maintain the fiction, but once they’ve tipped over, their insanity will will reveal itself to them. And they will rage and go quite crazy; some will never recover.
Lost time, energy, money, prestige, face - all gone up in smoke. Poor xians - NOT!
We’ve been trying to convince them that there never was any god, that he was always in their heads and in the hands of charlatans and snake-oil salesmen. But their delusions, fostered from birth, were too strong to break the chains that kept them enslaved.
Sadly, the chains were only made of paper and words…
Jay:
Yes, really.
Probably astronomical.
Doesn’t mean there’s some supernatural agency at work. Not at all.
A. No gawd involved, &
B. Depends on whether the world is 6,000 years old, or billions of years old.
It’s the latter, so the imagination doesn’t quite boggle, sorry.
If you follow this link, you’ll find that you’ve actually MISQUOTED out of context (gee, whadda surprise!).
Here, under the Morowitz heading:
“Scientific ignorance also leads to the abuse of such citations, and you have to carefully pay attention to context. Coppedge, for instance, also cites (on p. 235) Harold J. Morowitz, Energy Flow in Biology (p. 99), who reports that (paraphrased by Coppedge) “under ‘equilibrium’ conditions (the stable state reached after initial reactions have balanced), the probability of such a fluctuation during Earth’s history would be…1 chance in 10^339,999,866.” In particular, this is “the probability of chance fluctuations that would result in sufficient energy for bond formation” needed to make a living cell. This statistic is laughable not only for its outrageous size, but for the mere absurdity of anyone who would bother to calculate it–but what is notable is that it has nothing to do with the origin of life. For notice the qualification: these are not the odds of the first life forming, but the odds of enough energy being available for any life to grow at all, in an environment which has reached an effective state of thermal equilibrium–a condition which has never existed on Earth. It is obvious that in an equilibrium state, with no solar or geothermal input, it would be impossible for life to gather enough energy to go on. Who needs to calculate the odds against it? Morowitz was demonstrating a fact about the effects of maximized entropy on a chemical system, not the unlikelihood of life originating in a relatively low entropy environment like the early or even current Earth. The fact is that life began in, and has always enjoyed, an active chemical system that is not only far from equilibrium, but receiving steady energy input from the sun and earth. So this statistic has no bearing on the question of the odds of life.”
Put that in your pipe & smoke it.
Don’t taste too good, do it?
But the wise man says it out loud.
Psalms 14:1.
YAWN.
Appeal to wonder. Yeesh, you folks all work off the same template, don’t ya?
Ummm…I’ll leave that to astrophysicists, thanks.
The universe had a beginning. Time had a beginning.
Energy’s infinite.
Mind you, these are all abstract measurements for basically a ‘number so big no 1 can grasp it’.
It’s said that numbers don’t lie, but when the numbers are beyond reach?
People fudge ‘em all the time. Especially when they’re incalculable.
Quit fudging the numbers.
Pure egomania. It HAD to be something like ourselves that formed us!
Utter, unmitigated crap.
I have a confession to make. I was more looking to pick a fight than to debate. It is my belief that debates are useless when it comes to what people believe. The best debaters can argue either side of the issue and defeat you. So if we were to change sides every time somebody defeated us in a debate, than theoretically you could argue against someone, get beaten, change your point of view and then the same person could argue from the oppisite view point and then defeat you again making you change back to what you originaly believed. Anyway the reason I felt like arguing some athiests is that the two most outspoken athiests at my work are both machine operators, they both constantly call me to fix their machines when all that is wrong is they don’t know how to set them up. Then later they will mock christians because they don’t understand how the solar system was formed and how life evolved. They say they are smarter than all the christians and have an arrogant attitude because they think they are on the right side of the God issue. I think this is amusing because they can’t even figure a simple machine out, yet I am supposed to believe that they actually understand biology and astronomy. So if they can¢t even do what they are being paid to do well than why should I trust them to make decisions that will affect how I choose to live. You say God is for suckers, but I say that you will find suckers in every belief. Most athiests who I meet do not really understand everything they believe any more than christians do. When I went to school and took theory classes on electricity the loud athiests and christians were both flunking their theory tests but supposedly understood life. I had a teacher who was always right about everything. The one time he taught us a formula that was different then what the textbook said. I questioned him on whether I should use his formula on the test or the textbook’s. He confidently answered me that I should use his, so when the answers I gave were wrong he gave me credit for them when I challenged him on it. The point being that there are many people who talk very confidently about many subjects, have a smug attitude, but really don’t have a clue as to what they are talking about. So do you think the world would be better if we could all drop our attitudes and try to be good at what we are paid for before we begin mocking other peoples beliefs and looking down our noses at them. I personally believe in God less for natural reasons than for the supernatual ones. If the only reason that I believed in God was because I had been debated into it I would have surely changed since to become whatever else could outreason me. So I can’t prove to you that He showed me future things or things about people I could not naturally know, but that’s okay. I don’t think you will ever believe in God because I argue the textual proofs, or because I show you the odds of all the prophecies about Jesus coming to pass in his life, because if you don’t believe in the supernatural it’s rather pointless. So sorry to bother you guys, but I just wanted to have an arguement that wouldn’t bother everyone else in the lunchroom. Later on.
So sorry to bother you guys, but I just wanted to have an arguement that wouldn’t bother everyone else in the lunchroom.
Jay, I think the real reason is because you realize you don’t really have an argument and cannot provide evidence for the existence of your god. So, you come here with your frustrations. Why does your god not help you out and give you the knowledge and ability to present evidence for his existence directly to your peers? Maybe it’s because your god does not exist except in your own brain?
Jay, Jay, Jay…(sigh)
First:
the word is atheist, not athiest.
How am I to trust your critique of a worldview you can’t even spell?
2nd:
So you got a bloody nose, & are now taking flight?
Anytime you want a full 12 rounds, you come visit me at my blog.
You sound exceptionally young. Mid-20’s?
Your run-on anecdotal sentences really don’t impress me very much. You show an abysmal knowledge of evolution, this crap about ‘gee, you don’t find nothing inside of something’ nonsense (yeah, you divvy up matter, you find MORE matter, wow, that proves ‘gawd’!), I’m getting the distinct impression you haven’t fleshed out your ramblings much except on a verbal plane, which isn’t much of an epistemology (it’s easy to bulldoze a conversation, ya know).
Oh, I’ve fought that fucking fight a few times. So anytime you want to bring it, you put up your dukes, sonny.
I can categorically slaughter those ‘prophecies’, no problem. Exegesis is how I came to my conclusions originally.
Just what I figured. Big mouth, glass jaw.
Typical.
There is no natural reason to believe in a god. And nothing supernatural exists. Doesn’t leave much but logic and reason.