Should we be worried?
28 August 2007 by StardustI found this headline in the religion section of Yahoo news today: Netherlands sets plan against extremism. Is it “extremism” to attempt to curtail religious extremism? Is it a violation of people’s freedom of religion or is it necessary steps society must take to support democracy and protect against theocratic rule? Shouldn’t other groups prone to extremism be included?
Islam is spreading in Germany rapidly. According to the German channels, RTL & 3Sat, there are about 4,000 new Muslim Germans every year. More than half of the number are women. There has been a phenomenal growth of Islam in the United States and many western nations. There were 945,000 Muslims living in the Netherlands on January 1, 2004, double the amount in 1990, and has been steadily increasing. Many sympathize with Muslims and even fight for their rights to their “faith” and way of life. On the other hand, many also fear that with the steady growth of Islam in Europe and other parts of the world may be just the start of serious conflicts and social unrest that will continue to grow as more and more religious fundamentalists increase in population and are elected to positions of power.
Since leaving the Dutch parliament, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has made further statements in support of restrictive immigration policies. She made her statements on this subject on 1 November 2006 in the television program Aspekte on the German TV station ZDF. She said that she feared that Muslim immigrants, once in the majority, would introduce Sharia legislation. Here is Ayaan Hirsi Ali Interviewed On Swedish Television
Dutch parliamentarian Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a native of Somalia who emigrated to The Netherlands in the early 1990s, is no stranger to controversy among her fellow Muslims. Living in the West, she felt free to publicly criticize Islam’s treatment of women.
But that freedom came at a price. In 2004, a short film Ali scripted called Submission was shown on Dutch television. In the film, naked women veiled with see-through shrouds painted with verses of the Quran kneel in prayer, telling their stories as if they are speaking to Allah.
The film’s co-writer and director Theo Van Gogh was later stabbed to death by a Muslim radical. A letter pinned to the body with a dagger threatened Ali’s life. Since then, she has been under the constant protection of body guards.
The danger hasn’t stopped her from remaining outspoken about her beliefs. Ali calls her new collection of essays, The Caged Virgin, an “Emancipation Proclamation” for women and Islam.
From NPR
Do we wait and see what happens in time? Is there a problem or are many free people just fearful and paranoid? According to women like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, there is good reason for concern and action to curtail Islamic extremism now.
28 August 2007, on 7:26 pm
Religious beliefs are not “Get Out of Jail Free” cards. Enforce the laws rigorously and let ‘em scream.
28 August 2007, on 8:37 pm
She’s hot.
28 August 2007, on 10:06 pm
Don’t know much about the specifics, but many European nations can legally restrict freedom of expression and association in ways that would be unconstitutional in the U.S. What’s described in the Yahoo article doesn’t sound that drastic though.
28 August 2007, on 10:55 pm
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28 August 2007, on 11:51 pm
First; welcome back to posting…and modding?… Stardust. You’re absence made some of our hearts grow fonder!
I think Ali was on Bill Maher’s show last season, if I recall correctly. If that’s correct, I was somewhat unaware of her up to that point. (No surprise, considering the media) I do recall being very impressed by her obvious personal ‘grace’ and wonderful articulateness. Considering all she’s been through in the production of her film, and the aftermath of the insane killing of Theo Van Gogh; it’s amazing to witness the amount of courage she exhibits…literally putting her life on the line… in such a public way. Adding to that, her being additionally hated by other factions as an admitted atheist; I think she deserves our highest GifS level of “Ramen”!
Indeed,she’s a great role model, if you will, for ALL people who value their secular freedoms; to insure that NOTICEABLE pressure is maintained…if not, indeed, increased…for all religions to have to account for their arrogant and unjust attempt to mussel any protest regarding their outrageous and ridiculous claims about concepts of the world…AND the Universe!
It’s WAY past time, I think, for true freedom to emerge. We need many more like Ali, and the likes of Dawkins, Harris etc.
Harkening back a bit, to the 1960s(?)…
I say:
“RIGHT ON!…AYAAN HIRSI ALI!”
29 August 2007, on 1:08 am
My biggest fear is that once the number of Muslims begins to rival that of Christianity, that we’re going to see a full blown religious war, and those of us on the outside are going to be screwed big.
Especially when each try to out “religion” each other and pass authoritarian religious laws outlawing pretty much EVERYTHING.
29 August 2007, on 6:11 am
Religion is a disease. It has a mild chronic form that most carriers tolerate and function normally with for the most part (but still it affects overall well-being and makes one more susceptible to other “diseases”). But then there is the very virulent form that drastically affects one acutely and profoundly in negative ways.
Now some (many!) will say “you’re just an atheist malcontent who cannot see the beauty and comfort we of faith see and feel – poor you” But many who has been around recovering addicts (e.g., alcoholics) will find that same sentiment expressed, that is: “I used to think how boring and pitiful my sober ordinary brother’s life was, and how wonderful mine was with my friend the bottle at my side and the circle of fellow people like me supporting my pleasures” Addicts and twisted people (sick people they are) always think they are in Nirvana until they crash.
Most with mild form of religion disease never hit that bottom,; problem is THEY are the ones that keep the disease going!!! The virulent form would actually kill off itself because it cannot sustain hosts (would self limit).
But many with acute form do crash. Some of these crashers re-double their efforts to maintain the addiction, or the connection to the familiar; others work their way out of the addiction and become that much stronger. I suspect many on this blog are recovering-Catholics, etc.
Religion is a disease and is VERY dangerous… if for no other reasons other than it values faith over real objective reason, feeds unjust prejudices usually, seeks to oppress some group generally, and seeks to control aspects of life that it has no business controlling almost always. Wake up FREE PEOPLE.
29 August 2007, on 12:14 pm
The oddest thing is that in some circles she is declared the extremist. Either way her courage is to be commended. Our discussions about the nature of religion are sheltered here in the “free” world. However, the danger is very real and tangible in her world. Middle-eastern women like her are some of the bravest people I’ve seen regardless of their stance on religion.
AtheistUnderMask,
in a strictly unconventional line of thinking this would actually benefit the atheist perspective. More and more neutrally religious people would come over to the dark side as both religions spiral into dogmatic chaos. In my firm opinion, in the modern world, ultimately the agnostic/atheist perspective would win.
29 August 2007, on 12:56 pm
Yes and no. In reality the fundamentalists are the ones keeping the truest to their written religious word. So while it might make some moderates say “screw this” and hang it all up, I think it just makes most moderates more secure that their more “rational” interpretation is the right one. IMHO…
29 August 2007, on 2:23 pm
Well, that’s our problem. We would pretty much be fucked if it was for another religious war. Not just for our minority status either, it’s also that we don’t like to fight back physically. I’m not talking about NOW, of course, I’m talking about if all hell were to break loose.
You constantly see it around our ‘circles’ so to speak. People talking about how it’s never necessary for war and such. That’s why we’ve always gotten our asses handed to us in big religious situations. We’re reasonable in every other regard, but throw violence in the mix and suddenly we’re better examples of what religious people like to pretend they’re like than they’ll ever be.
Religious people have no fear of bullying others and stomping all over them. ‘Liberals’, pretty much anybody who isn’t for bullying others, also don’t like to defend themselves either.
Sorry for this little rant, but it’s just frustrating for me that so many in our group are under some mystical assumption that, with a little persistence in our debate skills, we’ll lick ‘em.
By the way, I’m totally not referring to ANYBODY on this site. It was just something I needed to get outta my head and refers to situations like the growing religious bullshit, such as this, that we keep hearing about so much these days.
29 August 2007, on 2:54 pm
I’m not against fighting back, and I’m glad I’m a gun owner. I’ve never used a weapon in anger, and hope I never have to, but I would if pressed.
29 August 2007, on 6:13 pm
I think we have reason to be concerned, but we also have to be careful not to let our concern blow up into outright fear; we’re living the consequences of falling prey to fear-mongering right now here in the US.
Unfortunately, I don’t know much about how exactly Europe is tackling this issue, but I strongly feel that keeping it as public and openly debated as possible is definitely a good idea. Again, keeping religion strictly separate from government and making sure that there are hard-and-fast laws enforcing civil and equal rights for everyone, including Muslim women, is a must (and may already be in place; like I said, I’m speaking from ignorance here).
The fact is there are no absolute guarantees that secular countries remain secular; enough of a majority authoritarian enough to impose their views on everyone could desecularize even the most liberal of governments given time, influence, power, and money. I almost forgot to mention that I feel it’s imperative for a government and citizen watch groups to keep very close tabs on extremist populations like Sharia-law-following Muslim groups - in the same way they maintain neo-Nazis under the microscope, for example.
In addition (boy, this comment is getting long), we all, Americans and Europeans included, need to be taking long, hard looks at exactly why and how Islam in all its forms is having such success. What on earth could be motivating so many women, for example, to “take up the veil,” so to speak (and I do realize I’m speaking very generally)? It’s also important to realize that not all Muslim “denominations” fit the description of “extremist,” nor do all of them believe that Sharia law should be the “law of the land.”
I guess all I can say at this point is that no, I don’t think we should just wait and see what happens. Let’s learn as much as we can about “them” while also teaching them about “us.” Anyone resisting this approach will have to enter the public arena and continually explain why they don’t support it.
Say we ask a madrassa to let a secular humanist group in for a seminar/talk/something; the head imam says no. Make the exchange public and keep insisting until he has to explain why he’s refusing. It won’t be enough to say we want to keep our children away from your influence; the obvious answer is how do we know that this isn’t an excuse to cover up child abuse? We’re not talking about entering people’s homes, but a school, which doesn’t enjoy the same privacy as a household (and even there the same laws against abuse apply).
OK, now I’m rambling and I get the impression I’m not making any sense; I’ll post this comment and review it later to see if it’s coherent or not!
29 August 2007, on 6:14 pm
That makes at least 2 of us then. And again, I was talking about the atheist/humanist/liberal group at large, not necessarily anybody here, so yeah…
29 August 2007, on 6:19 pm
“but we also have to be careful not to let our concern blow up into outright fear”
True, I agree with that. But it is scary, and definitely not impossible, but I don’t think anybody here is that scared, or we’d be doing something beside commenting on it ya know? Though, maybe not, I don’t know, looks like I’m contradicting myself, dammit.
29 August 2007, on 6:50 pm
I think I got what you’re saying, Ford; I think…
Does anyone else here think that intelligence-gathering of extremist religious groups (such as infiltration, surveillance, and maybe even wire-tapping) is also a reasonable response to their growth, or am I just an espionage addict? I mean, how else would we find out for sure what exactly is being taught in a madrassa, for example? And I don’t mean warrantless wire-tapping - of course, we’re probably already doing all of the above (I hope). We do it with other extremist groups, including religious…
29 August 2007, on 9:19 pm
“I think I got what you’re saying, Ford; I think…”
Basically we (we being liberal-ish groups), from what I’ve seen, are a peace oriented bunch to the extreme, with at least a higher than average number of us believing that the high road is to have peaceful sit-ins in response to violent attacks on us.
Yet again, I’m not advocating just attacking any jehovah’s witnesses in response to some religious jackass beating an anti-ID professor, but if things went haywire, like Nazi-Germany haywire, we would need to do a little more than what our group has traditionally done. It’s an inherently crippling trait of ours.
Not talking about this as though it’s imminent, I’m purely making an observation and stating a hypothetical.
30 August 2007, on 12:27 am
I think that the FIRST thing most, if not all of us, “liberal-ish” (wimpy?)types (Ford’s description) can do is to be “out of the closet” regarding our atheism; at least with our families and friends…as a starter. We need to overcome any sneaking paranoia that we may have built up. In other
words…exercise out right to be free with whatever OUR view of the world is. After all; that’s exactly what the religious bullies have been doing forever!
At least the door has been publicly, and noticeably, opened by Dawkins, Hitchens et. al.
Many of us, relative to our age, employment, family responsibilities etc., are not in position to start running around demonstrating, or even, as Eve touched on…spying on the activities of the various religious fucktards. (Yeah Rev…that is a great word!) That could be very dangerous, indeed! We DO have to be rational, sensible…and careful…about our activities.
At least, as a first step (ala Atheists Unanimous?); we can all start close to home. I think it really starts with honesty to those close to us…family, friends…even associates…one-on-one. And of course; doing it, perhaps, in a more non-aggressive, non-heavy handed way.
Casual sharing of carefully selected Atheist oriented links in emails; fr’ntance.
Here’s a sort of ‘gentler’ little series that Stardust linked to here on GifS, a ways back; for just one example:
Digitalfreethought’s Atheism 101
[On YouTube in 6 parts]
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxF12cpLyhM
(i.e…Pat Condell might be just a WEE bit harsh for the uninitiated!…What!…Save him for those nasty, and bloodthirsty backlashes?)
Yeah…like, don’t be TOO big a pain in the ass? But, at least…let them know.
The next step may be for all of us to use the Internet to email places like the Major media…CNN, etc.; usually in connection with relevant news stories.(?) Gradually, getting more involved in making the “Media Sheeple Sleepers” aware of our ever growing numbers…and Separation of Church & State concerns!
Of course, contacting any aspect of government, these days, is a bit more conducive to possible, even “rational” paranoia; considering the fuckhead climate established since 9/11 by the Bush led Constitutional eroding fuckheads! “AARGH!”
I’m pretty sure I don’t have to go further with this; and I’m guessing many of you already ARE involved with much of what I’m suggesting.
After all…it’s what religions have ALWAYS done, in one way or another, since time immemorial. I’m reminded of how the Religious Right’s “Moral Majority” (Insanity) and Dominionist fucktards started their organized surge back in the 1960s; greatly enabled by “Mr. Jellybean” Reagan and his gang of delusional weasels.
Zama, zama!
30 August 2007, on 1:47 am
Some of us “liberals”- dyed in the wool, in my case, do not subscribe to the whole turn the other cheek mantra. Rational discourse is obviously the optimal method for conflict resolution but it’s essentially worthless when one party’s creed requires, hell, embraces the abandonment of reason and intellect. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that different rules apply for the nutters. Even still, I wouldn’t accord these demented fuckwits even the respect and compassion I would the truly mentally ill because their affliction is to true mental illness what putting fingers in one’s ears and singing “Na, Na, Na, Na!” is to being actually deaf. Completely voluntary and inexcusable.
They can have my brain when they pry it from my cold, dead skull- and, then, only after they’ve eaten a seriously unhealthy dose of lead on their way in…
Make love, but keep the pistol on the night stand!
30 August 2007, on 8:57 am
As I mentioned before, I’m not a liberal, but I can wholeheartedly agree with RDZ’s comment. Though I keep the pistols in the closed in a locked case
30 August 2007, on 8:57 am
Doh! “Closet”, not “Closed”.
30 August 2007, on 6:30 pm
As a Naval Intelligence officer who lectured for my undergraduate political science class once told me, “you’ve got a future in military intelligence if you ever decide to pursue it, young lady” (yes, I’ve heard the military intelligence = oxymoron joke). I seem to be predisposed to be sneaky like that, as opposed to in-your-face combat, and in armed conflict you do need both…
31 August 2007, on 3:50 am
For any of you frequent flyers; beyond the usual fear of a really bad flight, due to the terrorist scare…here’s ANOTHER reason, perhaps, for NOT flying.
[Another one of my musical cohorts sent me an email linking this.]:
One man’s solution to a REALLY…
“Bad Flight”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSOdXpndCIo
31 August 2007, on 9:38 am
Lol, good one Chuck. Of course you can’t go from Denver to Frankfurt on a princess cruise.
1 September 2007, on 7:04 pm
Secular government is one of the greatest accomplishments of human kind. It insures more peace, freedom and political stability. It must be defended against ALL fundimentalists be they Chistian, Muslim or whatever the religion happens to be.