“We’re electing a president, not a national pastor,”
18 August 2008 by Stardust
says Rev. Barry Lynn of Americans United for Church and State.
I don’t see what good it will do for the American people to again hear the candidates spout pious platitudes about their favorite Bible verses or how devout they are.
“Candidates should appeal to the voters based on their qualifications for office and their stands on the issues, not their religious beliefs,” Lynn said.
I agree with Lynn that we have heard enough about the religious views of Sens. John McCain and Barack Obama and let’s get on to the real issues. Looking back at the ” Rick Warren Bible drill” I say now that that is over, let’s get on with debating and discussing the things without the distraction of personal religious convictions. We’re a country of diverse people, not an evangelical congregation.
“This event continues the campaign spiral into religious matters. Americans want to hear the candidates’ views on important issues such as constitutional rights, public education, the Iraq War and the economy.”
The Sunday after the forum was held, Warren told his congregation:
“I could not vote for an atheist because an atheist says, ‘I don’t need God,’ ” Warren said. “They’re saying, ‘I’m totally self-sufficient by [myself].’ And nobody is self-sufficient to be president by themselves. It’s too big a job.”
So, no matter how intelligent, level-headed, fair, and moral an atheist is, he is saying that an atheist cannot do as good of a job because an atheist does not have an imaginary “co-pilot”. And no one disputed that.
And Warren left out the fact that President can’t do his job with just the help of his/her imaginary friend. The President has advisors, committees, military generals, and other experts who help him do his job. No sky daddy comes in and sits in at meetings and offers any advice. God is only involved when a president wants to use it as justification to invade a country, etc. If he says that God told him to do it, then the people cannot argue with that, right? 
After Obama-McCain forum, Rick Warren sermon focuses on character
18 August 2008, on 11:55 am
Yeah, Stardust…
Perhaps, similar to that old saying: “There’s no accounting for bad taste”…
“There’s no accounting for, total, dumbed-down stupidity at the highest levels”!
It never ceases to amaze me how, otherwise (seemingly), somewhat intelligent people can exhibit complete lack of basic, rational, critical thinking skills. The fact that these two candidates even CHOSE to participate in that, ultimately childish, ridiculous “piety contest” just proves my personal contention!
Steve Allen’s old “dumbing down of America” assessment seems to have reached a new, rather scary, all-time low.
But…then again…”wha-do-I-know”?
At least, as far as I could tell, we didn’t really hear anything new, or unexpected, from either of the two “Non-existent, Invisible Sky-Daddy’s kiss-ass” contenders. I must say; I had to really force myself to pay ANY attention to the multi-repeated broadcast.
Yeah…”Aargh!”…Or is it…
“Blech!”
18 August 2008, on 12:51 pm
Any President who uses the Christian’s bible as a reference book, believing it is the inerrant or even the inspired word of a god, is going to have less credible public or foreign policy than one who uses history, science and reason.
Anyone who hears voices inside of his/her head attributed to “God” cannot be well grounded in reality . Witness what we currently have in the White House.
There is a place for people who hear voices inside of their head, and it isn’t the White House.
18 August 2008, on 1:30 pm
I think this also demonstrates…albeit ULTRA-LITERALLY…what Joseph Campbell termed: “The Power of Myth”!
Indeed…one might even expand that to:
“The Enormous, Totally Baffling…Completely Mind-boggling…Power of Myth!”
It might even be a common cause of a common form of “Brain-Pain”; at least to any non-believer paying too much attention to it.
A little scene:
[Doctor (a Psychoanalyst?) giving an antidote?]:
“Like…Take two aspirins…and absolutely…with no exceptions…
DO NOT…under ANY circumstances…call me in the morning”…Oh…and…
Be sure to either burn (responsibly, of course!) or immediately throw any Buybulls, Korans, or other dangerous
mythological texts you might still have in your grubby little perverted posession, into the nearest dumpster.
However…I DO prefer the burning option.
Now get the fuck outa here!
Oh…and by the way…your last check bounced!”
NOTE:
By the way; Warren is due to be on “Larry King Live” tonight (Aug. 18).
My big gripe with Larry King is that he let’s a lot of the typical “godbotherers” like Billy Graham, and this guy, etc., get away with not having any opposing critic, or skeptic present in the same segment. Barry Lynn, or perhaps, someone like Hitchens, SHOULD be scheduled for the same time slot; especially in THIS case; being that it’s directly connected to the Presidential Election.
I know…”dream on”!
18 August 2008, on 3:24 pm
As Americans - you are all screwed. I really didn’t think it would make a lot of difference if Obama got elected but it’s looking more and more like your media is steering the public to elect McCain ( the mind boggles ).
I was at a local bookstore up here in Canada and it seems like there is a new growth Industry - the writing of post-American Empire books. You’re stuck in your two party system and no matter what you do now it’s too late I fear. The best we can hope for is that you don’t start WWIII.
Villaine
18 August 2008, on 3:43 pm
^I totally agree with you. America is going downhill. With Obama, I think there is at least a chance that things may get better. Maybe not right away, but I doubt that he would make things worse. I really think the guy’s heart is in the right place, but how affective a President he will be remains to be seen.
With McCain we are completely, totally, and utterly fucked. What I am really getting tired of is that everyone is constantly applauding his POW experience. Now, I feel for the guy, I really do. No body should have to go through that. And I’m no psychologist, but that would have to affect you for the rest of your life. Why do I feel like I’m the only one who thinks that putting someone like that in such a high position of power may not be such a good idea?
Why the hell is no one talking about this?
18 August 2008, on 9:03 pm
This pissed me off so much, I sent Ricky this email:
“Thank you for continuing the war against atheists. I’ve decided to stay home on election day. If I’m not qualified to be
president, then perhaps I shouldn’t be allowed to vote?”
Fuck Ricky and fuck Jesus.
18 August 2008, on 9:25 pm
Villiane–
I fear we are already over the precipice–sealed that deal in 2004. The only difference at this point is that Obama will slam the brakes during the descent into the chasm, while McBush will keep flooring the gas pedal.
As for Rick Warren: he won’t vote for an atheist because they don’t talk to his imaginary friend? If only he realized how completely inane that statement truly sounds. The stupidity is exceeded only by the sanctimony.
18 August 2008, on 10:22 pm
Once again, you’re a lunatic if you hear voices in your head, you’re a holy person who can rule a country if that voice happens to be named “God.”
I really think it’s about time we stripped the presidential power back to where it was supposed to be… the WEAKEST branch of government, behind judicial and legislative. None of those people that the president appointed were elected in and they have more power than the people we chose. Thus leading to some bad judgment calls.
I’m not one of those “small government” or “big government” supporters (I really don’t care, both sides seem bad), but I do believe in making the president a figurehead and not an actually powerful person. Like the great Douglas Adams wrote…
“It might not even have made much difference to them if they’d known exactly how much power the President of the Galaxy actually wielded: none at all. Only six people in the Galaxy knew that the job of the Galactic President was not to wield power but to attract attention away from it.”
18 August 2008, on 10:25 pm
I understand why Obama agreed to this interview with Rick Warren, he needs to reassure people that he is not a Muslim. But what a sad commentary on our political process that the two presidential candidates have been reduced to babbling about their faith with Rick Warren. Seriously, have you read this guy’s book? One of my wife’s old co-workers was a religious nut and he gave her “The Purpose Driven Life”. Out of morbid curiosity, I decided to read a little bit of it. I could not make it past the first couple of chapters. It is the most inane bit of drivel you will ever read. Needless to say, the book ended up in the recycling bin soon thereafter.
After trying to read that book though, I did check out Robert Price’s “The Reason Driven Life” from my local library. It was very funny.
19 August 2008, on 12:04 am
But what a sad commentary on our political process that the two presidential candidates have been reduced to babbling about their faith with Rick Warren.
It’s maddening. Sickening. And then that atheist comment was totally uncalled for. It gave my fundie family members joyous glee to hear that and they are all so happy and self-righteous about it now. (even more than they usually are). It’s very sad for the human race to have advanced so far technologically, then to slide backwards mentally…and that is also very, very dangerous for us to have so much technology with so many fundie lunatics in charge.
Yes, the media pushes this bullshit. They never question the religious folks, they have helped to tear down the wall of Separation of Church and State. The candidates are also chipping away at the wall by giving into the evangelicals. I guess all we can do is vote for the lesser of two sheeple. (Pardon the lame pun.)
19 August 2008, on 12:11 am
It’s slimy, arrogant, self-agrandizing little shits like this asshole that made me question and eventually leave Christianty.
Why the fuck anyone would agree to this insipid “debate” moderated by such a self-righteous, navel gazing, con-man is beyone me.
I really do hate these people. I’ve suffered under the horrific views of humanity espoused by these charlatans, which (surprise!) elevate these parasites to to the level of relevant.
America is screwed if it has come down to this.
To quote Johnny Rotten “Ever got the feeling you’ve been cheated?”
19 August 2008, on 1:35 am
Even though I don’t own a television, avoid reading more politics than I have to, and disdain the national press, I still managed to catch Obama in a couple of interviews that made it to the ‘net tubes. Away from partisan and demographic pressures, he appeared to be quite willing to state the obvious. A politician has to position themselves to get elected, period. It’s a popularity contest. He has to appease the millions of [unfortunately] judeo-christian Americans if he wants the election. That means he will have to agree to stuff that he doesn’t necessarily want to do, and then try to actually keep some of those promises or back up the statements with actions in certain cases. This is thanks to the dual party system, but he’s a part of it, and can’t deny it. We’re all atheists here, and we know what logic is.
If you’re going to play basketball, you better learn how to jump and shoot. I’m tired of hearing all the insipid criticism of Obama. Of course he’s at a church, he wants to be Pres of the USA, a regrettably religious nation. I know it was founded by deists and agnostics and freethinkers, only one of whom ever was a true christian in any sense to my understanding - and I’m not a history major. Don’t hold that against him. You have to listen to all the other things he says too. In interviews, he’s surprisingly candid and honest.
To me it’s like watching Jesse Ventura run for President, but with a better education, although Ventura probably outdoes him on the smarts and business skills. Of course we know who’d win in the ring…
Remember how Ventura was forced to back off from some of his statements, such as the saliva gland problem that America has, and fundamentalist god-ma? [sic-intended] Obama has to face the same stupidity, and somehow placate them so he can get enough votes to overpower the ~10% of displaced/destroyed Democrat votes that the GOP election machine companies will cost him.
Right now Dems are fighting an uphill battle even in the face of record-breaking unpopularity for the GOP and the Prez-in-thief. They have to get more votes than they’ll lose from Diebold AND what they’ll need to overpower the GOP. I think they have enough, it’s sort of a landslide situation here. Nonetheless, Obama has to position himself to win. RTFA, read the full article. If the GOP win, I’m already looking at land in Canada. My kids were asking me this summer why we haven’t moved to BC already, and I explained the job economics to them. I have to find a property and job in BC.
I have six friends who’ve already left for other nations, most of them to Canada. Come spring of 2009, America may witness its first-ever population decline due to mass exodus. Would you want to be trapped in the United States of Jesusland, or the Fourth Reich? Neither would I. PS, I’m a US Navy cold war vet. I tracked submarines during the cold war. He** yes I miss the USSR, come back baby… the world needs you.
Okay that was a slight digression, but I think everyone will understand.
Demo
19 August 2008, on 5:18 am
“I could not vote for an atheist because an atheist says, ‘I don’t need God,’ ” Warren said. “They’re saying, ‘I’m totally self-sufficient by [myself].’ And nobody is self-sufficient to be president by themselves. It’s too big a job.”
This reminds me of the state motto of Ohio: “With God, all things are possible.” This statement, which may seem harmless, could lead people to believe they could take dangerous risks, with the odds stacked firmly against them, if they think that God is on their side.
Imagine if George W. Bush invaded Iraq because he thought that he could only achieve his goals with God’s help.
19 August 2008, on 8:17 am
Meanwhile you can bet that Rick Warren is, as is ALWAYS the case, with these megachurch fuckwads, diddling his choirmaster or scheduling prayer meetings with his meth dealing male prostitute. You know these people can’t believe the bullshit they put out their for the sheeple. If they did they’d be scared shitless.
19 August 2008, on 9:58 am
These megachurches are big businesses. The bullshitters at the helm of these sheeple centers found a way to live a comfortable to very rich life with the offerings to Jeebus. No one questions, no one cares as they keep forking their money over in exchange for being retold fantasy stories every week, and stories about how everyone who doesn’t believe as they do should be pitied so they can pump themselves up to feel self-important that they are special to some imaginary friend. If they really believed in that imaginary friend, they would not need the big centers, the bullshitter at the altar to tell them so week, after week, after week.
That’s one of the things that first got me rethinking religion and what I was doing. I began to see that the same people went to the same mythology temple week after week, sometimes several times a week to be told the same old shit, the same old stories, the same old litany, the same old prayers. It was a lot of work to keep believing…and then there was the thing where god needs money. I could go on and on with that one. I always wondered why they couldn’t just gather in nature and just be quiet. It’s because brainwashing in very necessary to keep believing something so far-fetched. If you go off on your own, reason may take over.
19 August 2008, on 10:20 am
I’m tired of hearing all the insipid criticism of Obama. Of course he’s at a church, he wants to be Pres of the USA, a regrettably religious nation.
Demopoly, Obama DOES believe this god crap. He is quite devout in his beliefs and most likely is why he is so far ahead and why the Dems want him. They will choose anyone for the good of the party. Unfortunately, the opposition is much worse.
We’re all atheists here, and we know what logic is.
And my atheist logic tells me that Obama really does believe this bullshit and the Dems are resorting to electing a god botherer to get a Democrat into office. I am a Chicagoan, I know that Obama really believes this crap. He found Jeebus before he was in politics, thanks to Rev. Wright (who he now distanced himself from for the time being.) I sense that Obama’s “faith” is much stronger than McCain’s. And my fundie relatives are so entrenched in their Republican beliefs that they will vote for him anyway even if it was proven that Obama is Jesus returned to Earth.
I will agree, though, that electing a Bush clone is not an option. With McCain we can be sure it will only be more of the same. With Obama, much will be the same as far as pandering to the fundies and trying to keep them happy, because Lawd knows they cry and scream when they don’t get their gob into the middle of everything. What a mess we have come to. In my 53 years I have never seen an election like this where it seems more like choosing a church minister rather than a president of a diverse nation.
I was disappointed that no one has come forth to the defense of those who hold no faith in any gods or religion, but I do understand that to do so is political suicide at this point in time. And in this country it seems to only becoming more and more entrenched in it’s superstitious sky daddy beliefs. Anyone would swear that it is a big theocracy. When a president goes to China and demands that they allow Jeebus beliefs, that is very similar to Ahmadinejad pounding his fists on the podium and saying that the world needs to bow to Allah. We are looking more and more like a nation of crazy Jeebus believing fundamentalists.
19 August 2008, on 10:27 am
One more thing about the question if Obama’s faith is geniune…here is right from Obama himself concerning his faith:
*snip*
Yet, he has used his religion as a political tool, whether by force or whatever. He has not made it clear enough that it doesn’t fucking matter what a person’s religious beliefs are and they should be a personal matter. But I do understand that we are practically living in a Xian theocracy now and what do we expect? No matter if we continue to have a two-party system or not, the wall of separation is threatened and if it came down to it, how far would religious candidates go to get elected? Will they eventually have to come right out and denounce atheism? I hope it doesn’t happen in my lifetime because I couldn’t stand to see it. But I am still concerned about my children and their children. They may have to move to another country.
19 August 2008, on 10:59 am
Stardust, I have to tell a funny aside: when I moved away to college (and incidentally became an atheist) my old church followed me for awhile, trying to get me to “declare” to a new church in my college town. One repellent woman who called me said (I paraphrase) “Pastor says that people who don’t delcare a new church within 6 months of leaving here never do!” like that was something bad. Well, what does THAT tell them? When you get away from the brainwashing for a few months everything starts to make a lot more sense, and you don’t want to go back?
19 August 2008, on 11:07 am
When you get away from the brainwashing for a few months everything starts to make a lot more sense, and you don’t want to go back?
Orzo, exactly! The longer you are away from it, the more clearly one sees. The brainwashing fades. The only way to keep believing is to keep yourself brainwashed. This just goes to show that there can’t be a god who is keeping his sheeple together because the only way belief can stick is to keep reinforcing it in ones mind whether in group ritual or self-ritual. People who are off by themselves who keep believing still keep reinforcing those things to oneself and do not allow for considering that those beliefs they hold are only delusion.
19 August 2008, on 11:38 am
JUST A REMINDER…dear GifSters…for anyone interested, that is…
One of the VERY few, and favorite, voices from our side of “the fence”…Bill Maher…is due to be on Larry King Live…TONIGHT (Aug. 19th).
I’m hoping, somewhat anxiously, that there’ll be at least SOME blow-back from Maher about what’s been commented on here. Also…hopefully…the whole show will just concentrate on Bill’s appearance.
[In other words..."No Fundie Fuckhead segments allowed"!]
Additionally, perhaps, a RATIONAL style call-in comment, or whatever, will also stir things up?
I’ve complained here, more than once, that neither Dawkins nor Hitchens have EVER, to my knowledge, appeared on that show. Then again, it’s on CNN; which always seems to me, to be a bit overly kiss-ass to people like Warren, etc.
[Maher is also due back on the 29th of August, on his “Real Time” HBO series. Just in time (thankfully?) for the Conventions…and Election “Home Stretch”. And, of course, “Religulous” is due out on October 3rd.
“RRRoger…10-4; Over and Out!”
19 August 2008, on 11:58 am
Thanks for the info Chuck. Bill Maher is my hero.
19 August 2008, on 12:44 pm
I just read this commentary:
Next president need not be the vicar of Saddleback.
This part bugged me:
No mention of the millions who hold other types of beliefs nor those of us who do not hold any religious beliefs.
But then he recovers nicely:
19 August 2008, on 1:08 pm
I can’t stand Bill Maher and his loopy germ theory denialism. He’s just as deluded as Obama. His HBO show has become increasingly unwatchable with all his anti-scientific diatribes against “Western” medicine. With George Carlin gone, I’m running out of people to admire.
19 August 2008, on 2:01 pm
What I like about Bill Maher is that he just comes right out and says what he thinks and to hell with political correctness and what people think about him.
“Anti-scientific diatribes’? Can you explain? I must have missed some things. I don’t watch him regularly. And as for him being my “hero” I like it how he says it like it is when it comes to religious bullshit. Wish I was brave enough to be that outspoken in real life.
19 August 2008, on 3:58 pm
If you haven’t seen his show recently, I can see how you’d still be enamored with him. He’s a serious antivaxxer, and he’s even resorted to the “Pasteur recanted on his deathbed” canard. People who deny germ theory are just as deluded as people who deny evolution. He’s advocated all sorts of Chinese woo as alternatives for “Western” medicine. I keep putting “Western” in quotes because what he’s really against is science based medicine. If you are looking for a rational, science minded individual, Bill Maher ain’t it.
I put him in the same category as Christopher Hitchens. When he’s bashing religion, I’ll tolerate himin as much as I’m in agreement with the “no quarter” towards religion, but for the rest of his nonsense, “Check, please.”
19 August 2008, on 4:25 pm
He’s advocated all sorts of Chinese woo as alternatives for “Western” medicine. I keep putting “Western” in quotes because what he’s really against is science based medicine.
I don’t watch a whole lot of television and see mostly what is on the internet. I am surprised…and disappointed to hear that about Maher.
19 August 2008, on 5:30 pm
Here’s Orac on Bill Maher. Read it and weep. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/10/is_bill_maher_really_that_ignorant_part.php
19 August 2008, on 6:35 pm
Todd, thanks for the link. Another person to be disappointed in. Boo hiss.
20 August 2008, on 12:05 am
What’s the name of that church, “Brokeback” or “Bareback”?
20 August 2008, on 12:10 am
Todd?…I watch Bill Maher rather regularly [I get HBO]; and your criticism on that particular point is probably spot-on. BUT…that, in my memory of his shows, is a rather rarely touched upon topic.
I personally watch him…mainly…because he’s almost the ONLY person on a regular venue to speak about issues relevant to us atheists. It’s too bad, of course, as I mentioned in the above comment about a show like Larry King Live. Dawkins, Dennett, and yes Hitchens (on atheism, at least) are almost nowhere to be found.
And like Maher, I feel pretty much the same about Hitchens. For me, my interest in him is almost exclusively about his anti-religion and atheistic views.
Your obvious expressed hatred of Bill Maher just reminds ME that the only thing we atheist REALLY hold in common is the non-belief in any gods.
That’s IT!
Other than that…you name it…and, like everyone else, we’re all over the “map”!
It ain’t a religion, after all!
Personally, I couldn’t care less about anyone’s dietary opinions; especially an Entertainment personality like Maher. At 68, I recall that even some doctors have ended up looking rather lame, over time, on various subjects!
Remember, for example, Dr. Linus Pauling RE the Vitamin C hype? I know…bad example?
The one talent, in my ultimately fallible opinion, that we humans seem to have “in spades”…almost universally…is arrogance; and for some, it’s a blatantly self-righteous version!
Anyway, Todd…”With all due respect”?
“To each his own”?
20 August 2008, on 11:08 am
This news is uplifting:
Saturday Night Live: Pastor Warren’s Biblical Pop Quiz Bombed With N.Y. Youth
It would be interesting to know just how many young voters actually tuned in to watch this nonsense.