More Dumbass Xians
29 November 2008 by Bob
This next example comes from Pharyngula, and I actually thought it was a joke. But I’m not so sure, and maybe someone else could help me out…
So many Christians find it hard to deal with this book and they cant understand why Paul never condemns slavery. I understand that there is so much evil in slavery, when masters abuse their slaves. That is wrong. The bible condemns treating others in an evil way. So this is not the issue. But slavery in itself is not wrong. Just as husbands can abuse wives, does it mean marriage is evil? Or parents can abuse their children, does it mean parenting is wrong? Because masters can be evil to their slaves, it doesn’t mean that slavery is wrong. Just as wives are to be submissive to their husbands, likewise slaves are to be submissive to their masters. [...] If slavery is wrong, then wives should not submit to their husbands, children should not obey parents, women should became equal to men and preach in churches ( which is forbidden in the bible by the way), and mostly no one should call Jesus their master or submit to the authority of God. For this reason, the bible does not condemn slavery, because the whole concept of Christians serving God would be meaningless. [...] I do not believe slavery is wrong, because a) The bible does not condemn slavery and b) Slavery makes so much sense and to say slavery is wrong we rob the gospel off its meaning and even Election. The concept of total submission and slavery is at the very heart of Christ’s gospel. [...] The whole New Testament sounds like slave talk to me. If you are a Christian you will understand what it means to be bought and be a slave.
Sorry for the length, but it seemed appropriate.
The last sentence, of course, rings completely true for me: xians are slaves, no doubt about it.
And that’s what makes them stupid.
Enough said.
29 November 2008, on 11:17 pm
What’s really crazy is that this is from a blog by a young black woman. Does she think it was God’s will that her ancestors were enslaved? And if so, how does she justify being free today? Isn’t she now living in sin? But this is only more blatant proof that Nietzsche was right when he accused Christianity of being slave morality. After all, the Christian conception of heaven is nothing less than the court of an ancient Oriental despot on a cosmic scale, and Hell is his dungeon.
30 November 2008, on 12:57 am
These people are mystified when we say that their relighious beliefs are nothing more than a form of mental illness. It also reminds me of a study I was doing that led me to information about slavery during the civil war era. Apparently the religious orders had slaves at that time and thought nothing of it. Well as pressures built in the northern states it became mandatory to not have slaves. And as it goes the Jesuit order had slaves and instead of freeing them they sold them to good god fearing southern christians. Kinda makes you wonder.
Actually freedom was never a part of any religious teaching. The word was used but never in its fullest meaning. And never as an individual pursuit. Mostly as a way of being free to submit to church doctrine and teachings.
Is it me or does it seem as if the losers in the recent election have gotten crazier? Pheww there sure is some crazy shit goin on.
30 November 2008, on 1:11 am
The point about marriage is funny to me, because if I recall correctly (and please correct me if I’m wrong, it’s the only way I learn) is that marriage was originally started a system of ownership, wherein the man literally owned the woman, which is why women usually take the last name of their husband instead of the other way around.
30 November 2008, on 2:07 am
That could very well be the history behind marriage. I’ve never thought about it before, but it makes some sense when you consider the last name thing…
Perhaps that’s why its always the typical submissive xian sheep-women and chauvinist men who complain when women either don’t take the last name or hyphenate their maiden/married names…
30 November 2008, on 2:08 am
Partially tangential to the article…
As gkruz points out about Nietzsche’s critique…eternal “heavenly” life is REALLY nothing more than endless slavery and total submission to an outrageously archetypal dictator…or despot. In essence…total delusion!
The pretend concept of complete human “Free Will” touted so much by religious sheeple is, as we now know from Science and modern psychology (and brain chemistry?), total illusion…and one of the “Great Lies” perpetrated on the human race since time immemorial. Even “Poop Ratzo”, not surprisingly, recently emphasized (for the nth time?) the complete submission doctrine of all brainwashed believers.
For me, it’s one of the “built-in” contradictions to the intentionally lying notion of the so-called “All Loving”, yet hell-fire, fear mongering god concept.
“Fear of the Lord”, of course, is the old tried and true disciplinary tool of all “top-dog” style, hierarchical religious…AND political…fuckheads. Witness, of course, what’s happened, as well, under “Shrub”…and world-wide…in the so-called “War on Terror”; which an oxymoron, as in…”Terror on Terror”.
The Abrahamic monotheistic god concept (to be intentionally blasphemous) is the obviously made-in-man’s image of the Universal Asshole…the “Great Git”?…the “Ultra-Divine Fuckhead”…the “Gigantic Galactic Goon”…or, as in the old TV series, “3rd Rock”…
“The Big (Fucking) Head”…or, as in Star Wars: “The Force (Farce)”…?
And as I’m pretty sure I’ve ranted on before…
“What a manifestly fucking asshole, and obvious delusional (and probably epileptic?) jerk, the so-called “St. Paul” (of Tar’s-ass) must have been…IF…I repeat…IF…he ever actually existed historically!
He’s, after all, the ultimately kiss-ass archetypal model of the modern, extreme nut-case, evangelist!
Yeah…intellectually slavish…endlessly boring…mythologically & occult based (and literalized!)…Fear and Guilt mongering…
Bullshit!
And speaking of St. Paul’s letters to the Corinthians…(and some other items)….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk4dewtmczU&feature=related
30 November 2008, on 9:49 am
A history of religion from a non-religious, feminist perspective;
http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/2008/nov/barbarawalker.php
excellent read for those interested in such…
30 November 2008, on 2:04 pm
hogarm…Thanks for pointing to that article. VERY enlightening, indeed!
[like so many insightful "Freethought Today", and "ffrf" articles]
Barbara Walker, I think, completely demolishes the ever incessant…religious Fundie yapping…”Sanctity of Marriage” bullcrap.
In essence…like they do with so much of contemporary scientific research …brainwashed religionists pay absolutely NO attention to ACTUAL history.
1 December 2008, on 11:35 am
a) The bible does not condemn slavery and b) Slavery makes so much sense and to say slavery is wrong we rob the gospel off its meaning and even Election.
Slavery makes sense? For the slave owner, maybe. Can’t see that it would make any sense to the slave. Come be my slave for a while, Crazy Lady, and we’ll see if you still hold the same opinion.
1 December 2008, on 5:02 pm
Of course, conservative bible-believing Christians were leading the charge to preserve the institution of slavery in their own time. The Jerry Falwells, James Dobsons and Pat Robertsons of the 19th century were doing their damndest to preserve God’s will and save the nation from hellfire.
Thankfully, there were enough progressive/liberal Christians and many secular humanists who were stronger advocates for abolition. And progress eventually won against reactionary religion.
Fast-forward a century or more; and we are still dealing with the reactionary religious nutjobs using their holy books to justify institutions of discrimination, except this time it is against homosexuals and immigrants. Same s**t, different scapegoats.
1 December 2008, on 7:01 pm
I left a nice comment on that blog under the name “Jared” (which is my real name, so I don’t know why I put that in quotes. It is long, but I will reproduce it here. (mods, if I’m taking up too much space, feel free to delete it.)
How anyone can argue for the morality of slavery, I cannot fathom.
As to your arguments, Jean, let us begin to dissect them.
1. But slavery in itself is not wrong. Just as husbands can abuse wives, does it mean marriage is evil? Or parents can abuse their children, does it mean parenting is wrong?
This is an “apples to oranges” comparison. You seem to be missing the part that a wife is not owned by her husband, and children are not owned by their parents. A slave is owned. A slave can be sold with no regard to personal well-being. A slave can be sold without regard to their own family. If the owner wishes, he can sell a man, his wife, and their children to completely seperate individuals, splitting up that family.
This, I shouldn’t have to point out, is not exactly in keeping with the “good family values” that Christians are so fond of claiming adherence to.
2. If slavery is wrong, then wives should not submit to their husbands, children should not obey parents, women should became equal to men and preach in churches ( which is forbidden in the bible by the way), and mostly no one should call Jesus their master or submit to the authority of God
You confuse submission with slavery. I submit to my boss because I need my job. However, if I choose, I can leave that job, and suffer no legal consequences. The police will not hunt me down and force me to return to work.
As for a woman submitting to her husband, and children to their parents, I have a question for you. It is clear that you believe that for a wife to disobey her husband, or children to disobey their parents, is wrong, and therefore, it can be presumed, a sin. My question is as follows; If a husband tells his wife to do something that is, itself, a sin, what should she do? To commit the act is a sin, is it not? And yet, to disobey by not committing the act is also a sin. The same situation can be applied to a parent/child relationship.
3. Slavery makes so much sense
Slavery makes sense? Prove it. In what way does slavery make sense? I promise that for any situation you come up with in which slavery is better than the alternative, I can come up with a vastly superior solution to the situation.
4. but in relation to each other women and men are not equal. God gave us different roles.
Again, I must answer with a question. Let us look at two people, we shall call them John and Jack. John works in accounts receivable for his company. Jack, on the other hand, works for account payable at the same company. The two have different roles. Are they, therefore, unequal? I assume that you believe that a woman’s role in marriage is to be a submissive wife and mother, and that the man should be the breadwinner. I will not challenge that assumption, because doing so will get me nothing. However, let us examine this marriage. We have John, and Mary, a happily married couple. John works, and is fortunate to bring home enough money that Mary does not have to do so. Mary stays at home and cares for their two children. She cooks and cleans, and handles other such domestic niceties. You say they are not equal, and I say that they are. Both roles are of equal importance. They are different, but that does not make them unequal. One could say that without John, Mary would have nowhere to live. To that, I say that without Mary, John’s home would rapidly become unlivable.
5. In closing, yes, the bible does condone slavery. And to you, this means it is acceptable. I apologize, for I once again, must address this issue with a question.
Have you ever eaten lobster? Crab, perhaps? Any kind of shellfish?
If so, I have only one thing to say;
Leviticus 11:10-12
10And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
In case you missed that, eating shellfish is a sin. An abomination in the eyes of God.
If you’re going to follow the bible to the letter, don’t skimp.
Also, biblically, you aren’t even allowed to try to refute me. I’m male, and as Timothy 2:12 says,”I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”
So, you can either agree with me, or you can make no response. Though I suppose that’s your husband’s choice, isn’t it?
(Note: I apologize if I have incorrectly assumed that you are married.)
1 December 2008, on 7:25 pm
This post just makes me go WTF? Girl, are you outta your ever-lovin’ mind?!
If what you say is true, then why are xian groups all over the world working together with secular entities to combat modern slavery and human trafficking, especially of children? Oh, that’s right, I forgot: they’re probably No True Xians (TM), and you are.
So I dare you: go out, get yourself a slave, and “treat” him “well” while keeping it all open and public. When he objects or tries to escape or get help, feed him and anyone who comes along to try to aid him the line you just gave us. Let’s just see how far it will get you, not only in regards to the law but also your fellow xians. I’m willing to bet most of them will be more than happy to choose what their common, basic humanity tells them is right over the Wholly Babble…
30 December 2008, on 8:12 pm
Henri, your lengthy and tiring comment we have heard a zillion times before from others brainwashed with the same baloney. So, it has been edited when it got to the preachy point. (Please read comment policy.) You probably don’t have a clue about what thermodynamics even is. No one has made the claim that something has come from nothing. But we are not simple-minded enough to credit an imaginary friend for doing things that we cannot explain or do not understand. You better take some more science courses and stop trying to mix it with theology. ~Moderators