Well Done, Christopher…
9 November 2009 by BobDamn, Hitchens is really dead-on is this clip (his part ends at around 5:10). Good form, Hitch.
(Granted, I’m not exactly a fan of the times when he’s drunk off his ass — but, to be fair, I’m guessing that daily death threats to one and one’s family might cause one to be slightly anxious.)
9 November 2009, on 12:59 pm
All hail this great contrarian of our age! I too await the day when the Catholic Church will admit that condoms are much better than AIDs.
9 November 2009, on 3:58 pm
Thanks, Bob, for raising awareness RE that very relevant debate; and so recent…11/7/09! Obviously…everyone should really watch the whole series.
[In defence of Hitchens...in my viewings of many Hitchens videos; he hasn't really been in any obvious way...completely 'sauced'. Actually, I think, recently, he's somewhat moderated his embibing the alcohol drug (which IS a drug, folks). And I think he's also stopped smoking tobacco. And, to be honest...aren't we ALL 'addicts' of one sort or another?]
I digress?…
Stephen Fry is, I think, also quite excellent.
[See part 3 (After Madame "ultra-tight nickers", or is it, "Aunt Blabby"?]
The Church proponents, on the other hand, are obviously completely buried in their irrational delusion and utter denial, or at least they engaged in diminishing the importance, of actual historical facts. It’s quite amazing, to this atheist (and long ago Ex-Catholic), to witness the usual self-righteous giberish of otherwise SOMEWHAT intelligent people. It’s also amazing that they STILL actually believe, without question, in a Church who’s, traditionally arrogant and obviously sado-masochistic, supressive doctrine is purportedly based on the ridiculous and contradictory fantasy claims existent in the totally made-up, Bronze Age Bible. It’ also rather scary, considering the World situation; and SO utterly out of whack with what we atheists think a year like “2009″ SHOULD actually be like.
Then again…what’s really new RE any of this for us secular atheist GifSters?
9 November 2009, on 4:48 pm
That was a rousing speech, to be sure, but Hitchens was off about the Catholic ’silence’ during WWII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII#The_Holocaust
9 November 2009, on 8:47 pm
KA. Hitchen’s was correct in his assumption of German Catholics being involved in the Holocaust. The anti-Semitic teachings of the Christian philosophy have been carried through the generations and all Christians who ever lived during that period had anti-Semitic thoughts in their mind; you need do nothing more and still be a contributor. The meme that the Jews were instrumental in the crucifixion of Jesus still exists in the Christian mind today.
9 November 2009, on 11:14 pm
If you listen, 30 seconds in, he specifically says ‘for the silence during Hitler’s Final Solution’. Nowhere in the speech does he specify which Catholics & where. It’s a broad generalization, & it’s false.
10 November 2009, on 3:15 pm
Hitchens’s remark about the Catholic church during the Holocaust may be overly broad, but it is generally true. Catholics protecting Jews were clearly the exception. Pope Pious XXI was tolerant of the Nazis and Pious XXII was absolutely in cahoots with them. Nazis fleeing justice following the war were routinely issued Vatican City passports and sent, in the style of the Underground Railway, to safe haven in South America. BTW, the church may have granted the Galileo was right, but it has never apologized for persecuting him. The church admits only to an “error.” I think Hitchens is right – someday the church will admit “error” about condoms and AIDS, but will never apologize for the suffering and death that resulted from that error.
Regarding Mr. Hitchens’s drinking, why is that relevant? He may be a drunk, but he’s OUR drunk, and I’m glad he’s on our side. And no, to my knowledge he has not given up drinking or smoking, but Winston Churchill did both – heavily – and lived into his 90s. Let’s hope for similar luck for Hitchens.
10 November 2009, on 5:41 pm
From the link I provided:
From 1941 to 1944, Pope Pius and the Catholic Church were responsible for saving more Jews from Nazi persecution than any other person or institution. Some Israeli scholars estimate that as many as 860,000 European Jews were saved from death through concealment in Church facilities, issuance of fake Baptismal certificates, public appeals and other methods. In one instance, Pius lent the Roman Jewish community part payment of a ransom demanded by the Nazis to save several hundred Roman Jews. Prior to becoming Pope, Pius negotiated a Concordat between the Vatican and Germany, which provided that Jews who had converted to Christianity would not be subject to persecution in Germany as Jews. This provision enabled local priests to save tens of thousands of Jews from deporation by issuing fake Baptism certificates. The World Jewish Congress, American Jewish community, Chief Rabbis of Jerusalem, Rome and Budapest, Golda Meir and many other prominent Jewish representatives praised Pius for his relief efforts and public denunciation of racial persecution. In August 2006 extracts from the 60-year-old diary of a nun of the Convent of Santi Quattro Coronati were published in the Italian press, stating that Pope Pius XII ordered Rome’s convents and monasteries to hide Jews during the Second World War.
Mind you, I also absolutely detest the Catholic church. But my feelings on the matter do not preclude the facts of it.
I would say, though, that they did these deeds in spite of their religion, not because of it. Anti-semitism has long been a staple of their dawg-ma.
As for the rest of it, Hitchens is spot on.
10 November 2009, on 9:02 pm
I take your point, although I do believe it is important to differentiate between Pius XXI and Pius XXII. The latter was, for all practical purposes, a Nazi himself.
And I fully realize the peril of dragging Hitler into any discussion, but he was, after all, a Catholic in good standing. Goebbels was excommunicated – for marrying a Protestant!
Anyway, I think we generally agree: The Catholic Church, as it exists today, and as it has existed through virtually all its history, has done more harm than good, and seems pathologically incapable of admitting its own errors. And this from an organization that demands confessions about trivial matters like masturbation and coveting.
The anti-condom stance in Africa is in itself enough to condemn the church utterly.
10 November 2009, on 9:22 pm
littlejohn –
Ummm….the quoted wiki was from Pius the XII wiki. I don’t think there’s been a 21 & a 22.
But no, neither of them were Nazis. Far from it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XI#Conspiracy_of_Silence
No arguments there: I’m being somewhat pedantic, which is both a blessing & a curse to an atheist.
10 November 2009, on 11:57 pm
Speaking of the ‘Catlick Choich’…
For anyone who hasn’t checked Austin Cline lately; he has a recent post (11/9) titled:
“Greg Craven: Atheists are a Plague…to be Exterminated?”
To wit:
“Greg Craven, vice-chancellor of the Australian Catholic University, goes down this path by comparing atheists to plagues”…
Here’s the Cline link:
http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/11/09/greg-craven-atheists-are-a-plague-to-be-exterminated.htm
AND…for PZ Meyers “take” on the “vice-fucktard’s” article:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/11/i_rather_like_frogs_and_blowfl.php
Needless to say, there’s a whole raft of interesting outraged atheist comments on both Sites.
[Somehow, I'm reminded of Python's "Bring out your dead!", "Holy Grail Plague" Scene]:
“I’m not dead…I’m getting better!…
I think I’ll go for a walk!”
11 November 2009, on 9:09 am
I shouldn’t have to point this out, but obviously I typoed my roman numerals. I was referring to Pius 12, who was considerably worse, from the standpoint of antisemitism, than 11. Forgive my fingers.
11 November 2009, on 12:08 pm
That’s why I included a winking emoticon.
Neither of them sounded like anti-Semites to me.
11 November 2009, on 1:09 pm
I googled Pius XII and anti-semitism and found numerous references to a new biography called “Pius XII, Eugenio Pacelli, A Man on the Throne of St Peter,” which is apparently a defense of Pius against the (widespread) accusations of anti-semitism.
The best-known indictment of Pius, as I’m sure you know, is “Hitler’s Pope.”
I confess I have not yet read either, but I gather there is a bit of a debate brewing about Pius. This will be interesting to follow, although the authors of both these books appear to have an Agenda.
Does anyone know of an objective treatment of the church during WWII? I dislike reading obvious propaganda.
11 November 2009, on 2:20 pm
littlejohn & KA?…
“Pardon me, boy(s)…is this the Trans(-yada)…station?”
I realize that I refer, somewhat often, to Austin Cline’s Site; but, as an atheist Site “mod/owner”, he’s probably done more articles and book reviews on the subject of Nazi Germany and the Popes, Hitler and Christianity, “etcetera, etcetera”, than anyone I’m aware of. I suggest checking this ‘Search Results’ page at his About.com Site for a whole ’shit house’ full of his various, relevant, articles…?
http://atheism.about.com/sitesearch.htm?terms=Catholic%20Popes%20and%20Nazi%20Germany&SUName=atheism&TopNode=99
As to the that perennial issue of “absolute objectivity” (non-propoganda?)…I ask you, my dear, fellow atheists…is there REALLY such an ‘animal’ existent on this marginally moronic(?) Planet?
(I’m KIDDING, KA!)
11 November 2009, on 5:05 pm
Actually, I didn’t know about it till today, but it sounds like Cornwell was talking out his ass.
A rabbi actually wrote a refutation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Hitler%27s_Pope
That’s why I tend to go to the bald facts & interpret them for what they are, rather than consult biased sources.
Good luck. Just examine the facts, & draw your own conclusions.
11 November 2009, on 5:26 pm
Thx for the consultation, Chuck, but lately I’ve gotten a wee bit leery of sources on either side of the polarization polemicists (say that 3 times fast!).
F’rex – it used to be that there were only 3 deists among the founders, now suddenly they were ALL deists. It seems as if facts can be altered by enough raised voices – but this is part of the human condition, regardless of ideology. I don’t frequent Austin’s website enough to know if this applies to him (likely not).
Facts are facts, & all the re-interpretations of them seem to put them into some sort of subjective flux.
12 November 2009, on 6:15 pm
KA, if I’d realized what a quagmire I’d stumbled into with you about the Nazis and the popes, I honestly wouldn’t have touched it. I think the relationship between them is historically interesting, nothing more. I have no opinion worth fighting over. I am not a historian, I can only read the opinions of those who are.
I’m hereby dropping it on grounds that I assume we’re all on the same side. I’m going to pour myself a nice steaming bowl of Valium soup. Perhaps you’d like some, with a side of blood pressure meds.
Lord, I hate emoticons, but sometimes you have to do it.
Cheers, littlejohn
12 November 2009, on 8:54 pm
Sorry, littlejohn, if I came off a little strongly. It’s my style, not my temperament. Again, not defending the cat-o-licks church, ‘just the facts, man’ (to paraphrase Dragnet – ChuckA does that better’n I do).
That’d be a fair assumption.
You’re all right. I’m just a tight-ass about facts, is all. Bygones.
12 November 2009, on 10:57 pm
[Homer Simpson]:
“mmmMMmm…blood pressure meds!…
D’oh!”
13 November 2009, on 7:33 am
Off topic:
I sent all moderators an email saying that I will be on vacation for the next ten days and will someone please man the queue. Bye folks, see you in a week and a half!
Ok, back to the discussion
13 November 2009, on 11:08 am
Enjoy your vacation, star.